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I mostly play against my friend with VC army. Usually, we play more points armies, but now we want some faster games and I want to try different style (usually I play lvl 4 Spellweaver as a general). I would like to know your comments if my army list can work fine against magic heavy VC:
Treeman Ancient - Cluster of Radiance, Annoyance of Netlings
10x Wild Riders - SB + War Banner, Musician
VC army I assume:
Vampire lord, lvl 4, +2 power dice, some heavy armor, etc.
BSB Wight King mounted
Vampire lvl 1 or 2
Additional Wight King or Vampire or no additional hero
2 units of Ghouls
First correct WB pts - there are 25pts based on Army book, but in new Rule book there are 35 (if 35 -> -1 GG )
Plan is simply focus all GG on 1 unit and charge it asap with Treekin from the front, TMA from side and WR frome rear to wipe the unit of Ghouls in one turn (chars incl.) and try to avoid Varghulf and Black Coach, what is not always easy. Questions:
1) In general, my friend likes heavy magic off, many power dices that I can all hardly dispell even (on 1750+ pts army) with lvl 4 Spellweaver + WoWE. He chooses light or beast lore for his general. So is it possible to ressist his magic with TMA + Cluster?
2) Should I take Musicians for GG, when my tactics are just to reach S4 distance and go back, possibly trash 1 unit as my cheapest one?
3) How to deal the best with Black Coach and Varghulf - is it worth shooting on them? A assume their counter charge from side into my WR or Treekin, after I charge the unit of Ghouls
4) Is Black Coach absorbing my power dices in 8th even from my pool regardless on the distance? My friend says yes.
Thank you very much for comments, special thanks if sirkently posts
Last edited by Soltari; February 20th, 2011 at 23:12.
The black coach will suck in your dice each round regardless of distance. It makes it incredibly powerful in this edition. But you shouldn't care too much about where you're power dice are, as long as you still have your dispel dice. and any power dice of his it takes, you can relax that much more. I would engage either the black coach or vargulf with your treekin or wild riders, else shoot the crap out of them and hope for some failed saves. If you're going to shoot them, shoot at the coach before it becomes ethereal, becaues by then you're just screwed. Combat res will be your best bet at taking out both of those units, so be weary of that when you think about your charges. Perhaps charge your ancient into battle and issue a challange, then let the varfulf charge the flank, then counter charge that. I've seen it done (with other like stat monsters) and it works beautifully. Not saying its not a gamble, but if you're in a challange the varfulf doesn't get to attack, so its only +2 res, and you're stuborn anyway. another suggestion for the vargulf would the banner of erternal flame. Flaming arrows are it's worst nightmare.
Thanx for reply. Interesting idea of challenge in counter charge turn, as he has more characters in 1 unit and my first challenge will not leave unit without character... but yes, he can refuse it. And of course, CR points are essence of fighting VC. One noob question - wounds for CR points loss can not be ward saved or regenerated in 8th ed, is this correct?
in 7th the wounds caused by extra CR could be saved by regen, which made vargulfs EXTREAMLY deadly. But in 8th, there are no saves of any kind allowed. Just be weary about charging the vargulf without being sure you'll win. Keep in mind that the vargulf (due to its own special rule) does not have a flank or rear, so don't count on those extra CR points when/if you charge.
Oh, and if he reffuses the challange then simply send his vampire to the back rank and now there's next to nothing that can actually dent your ancient. you could then either focus your attacks on the vargulf and try to kill it, or just smash the other unit to peices and get easy kills for combat res. I'd go for the kills, as they would be easier to hit, wound, and would likely have no save (unless they're sword and board skeletons with a parry). more wounds, and you'd likely take out a rank too.
Thnx for reply.
Overall, do you think my list is competitive to heavy magic lists (especially VC) or do you have any suggestions to improve it?
Last edited by sirkently; February 27th, 2011 at 20:36.
personally i'm not fond of cav forces anymore... I find that they don't make up their points since the opponent gets to attack back now regardless. in order to make cav viable, you have to have a huge unit (i.e. your 10 man block of wild riders). If you want more magic defense, I would scrap the wild riders (or at least part of them) to get a lvl 1 caster with the divination orb. If he only throws 1-2 dice you can either dispell it normally or not worry about such a weak spell. and if he throws 3 or more you get a free one. In addition to this free dice, the caster will give you +1 to dispel so its really not that bad a deal either way you go. I would take the remaining points from the scrapped riders and get a unit of scouts. Alot of VC players keep a caster vamp with helm of commandment in a small bunker unit behind thier main force (i know i do). So if you can get a unit of scouts around and start shooting the crap out of that small unit, not only will it put his general in danger, but he'll probably focus at least some of his magic on rebuilding that unit. its a stall tactic at best in that case, but anything he's casting on that non-combat unit is one less offensive spell. Those are just my opinions, it all comes down to play style. Some people really like cav models (because they've painted them really nice, or the model is just amazing) but as far as its effectiveness i'm sure you'd find that most everyone agrees all basic cav took a hit with 8th edition. I'd leave them at home and bring some more arrows. VC are reletively slow, and have no shooting. Dominate that phase and you shouldn't have a problem.
I´ve just finished the friendly game. It was fun, he played similar list to the above mentioned. He gave up in round 4, as I killed him several units. Here is a short review.
VC starts, 2 wounds to my Treekin with magic and transfomes his lvl 1 Vampire into Great Fire Dragon! Nice surprise
I have bad winds of magic, not possible to dispel dragon, killing only 5 ghouls in shooting phase (36 GG).
Dragon is flying across the table, burning 2 wounds to Treekin and preparing to kill all my archers in round 3 I have bad attemp to dispel his Vanhel´s Danse Macabre and his unit with 15 Ghouls and Wight King charges my Wild Riders... I´m almost crying ... charge resolves I have, 15 S4 and 5 s3 attacks, some good luck and killing many ghouls, CR kills the rest... results in 1 WR dead and from the units of Ghouls only Wight King with 1 wound lefts! .
My turn, I´m praying to Ariel and winds of magic 6+6 mean I can dispel dragon, leaving naked Vampire in front of my 36 Glade Guards -> bb and see you in the next game King is finished, but the game is not lost for VC, as he has fully sucked Black Coach and Varghulf approaching my 3 units of GG and TMA.
Low winds, nothing special in magic, Varghulf and Black Coach are ready for next turn charge.
I faild to charge main unit of Ghouls with Lord, but shooted 2 wounds of Varghulf.
VC attempts to charge my GG unit, it successfully flees, Varghulf redirects to 2nd GG, which successfully flees again and failes charge, leaving him near to my 3rd GG Black Coach charges TMA, making 3 wounds, TMA returns 1 wound.
I chase the Lord in unit, binding it from 2 sides with my WR and TK ready for next turn charge. GG shoot down Varghulf, TMA does 2 wounds and receives nothing. VC gives up, because I finish Black Coach and probably main unit with Lord and Necromacer next turn
All my units did great job, mainly WR won the day.
We will play next game 2 vs 2 - me and my VC friend vs VC and WoC (1500+1500 vs 1500+1500 ). WE+VC seem to me great combination. If you have any good advise, post it here please.
Last edited by Soltari; February 26th, 2011 at 09:16.