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Okay, so this list is for a 1250 point battle against Brettonians. My friend and I have been running the WD campaign. I won the first game and lost the 2nd and 3rd. We're at game 4 now. Because of his wins, he has the advantage, including 100 pts for the climactic game 5 (so he's already at 2100 for it). If he wins Sunday, he'll get another 150 pts for the last battle. If I win, he must deduct 150 pts from his game 5 total, leaving him at 1950.
In other words, I really need to win this battle. My objective is to get the Grail Reliquae from his unit of battle pilgrims, and that's it. Nothing else will grant me a victory.
I've tried numerous lists on Armybuilder, and here's what I'm thinking.
He'll use a lot of knights, because those are the models he has. There will be a lot of trees, about a third of the table. I need archery, but I don't see Glade Guard doing a lot of good, especially with all the trees and knights that could run them down in the second turn. So that leaves Waywatchers as my best option. Even a chance at killing blow can pay off against knights.
I need combat units that can take out the battle pilgrims, which are stubborn. And I'll have to go through knights to get to them.
So right now I have this list.
Waywatcher Noble, hail of doom arrow
Wild Rider Noble, murder of spites
Spellsinger, lvl 2, calaignor's staff
7 wild riders with banner of dwindling (the banner's expensive, but it could be a game turner, especially against knights)
6 wardancers with command
1250 pts even
--OR-- this list
Waywatcher noble with hail of doom arrow
spellsinger, lvl 2, calaignor's staff
8 wild riders with full command
44 models at 1245 pts
So what will help me more with those knights and battle pilgrims? A third character or the treekin? I'm thinking the treekin are better. Any ideas?
I would disagree on the use of glade guard, if you move a piece of terrain in front of is knights, he won't be able to charge beyond it, while you can pelt he with S4 arrows if you get up close and personnal.
I think some eternal guard could really shine for you, their stubborness will give he some problesm as he'll rely mostly ont he charge to break you units. A treeman could also be interesting, as he'll have to make some psychology checks, and he is stubborn too.
I have a hard time to see the advantage of a 9 man unit asides for the KB, but they'll be very hard to sneak around without getting in the charge arc of a unit of knights.
You could also make use of the glade riders, they are faster than is knights, and won't get
caught with ease due to the fast cavalry status.
Furthermore you could engage him with a wood elf flying circus, with alot of fast cavalry and some warhawk riders, anything to keep him from getting the charges, and jsut dance like a butterfly and sting like a bee ^_^
I considered eternal guard, but I just don't see that I can afford enough ranks to outlast a brettonian charge. And their armor save is negligible against knights who are almost certain to charge them.
A treeman would be terrific, but again, it's a whole lot of points, and I think treekin will be just as effective. Three more wounds than the treeman and still pretty damned tough. Just not stubborn.
I'm thinking it's better to be more mobile with all the skirmishing units. So which would be more effective, mobile units or ones like EG and a TM? Hmm....
the treeman also as a better Save and Toughness, and hits at a better Weapon Skill and Strength. terror is also a great thing to have, and especially when the opponent as little in the way of warmachine to threaten it. Don't forget the treesinging too.
How big are is knight units? you only need your eternal guard to last a the charge to have a unit flank the knights.
I think you're going through this with the entirely wrong concept.
As you said, the ONLY way to win, is through the Battle Pilgrims. You shouldn't be building a list to counter the knights, but a list to capture that Grail Relique.
If I were to build a list for this mission (which, I haven't read, as a side note, so I'm just going by what you said), I'd be concentrating solely on how to capture that Grail Relique, and nothing else.
The very first thing, that comes to my mind which you haven't mentioned, is that the Battle Pilgrims are only Movement 4, so, really, if the Knights are going to protect them with any effectiveness, they aren't going to be charging you on Turn 2 like the normally do.
I personally would build my army completely around movement, and fleeing. At my core, I'd have Glade Riders and a Great Eagle or two. Just use these to completely screw up the Knights. Use them either to march block, or put them about 8 inches or so away from the Knights as bait. Try to screw up his Knights as much as possible, lure them away from the Pilgrims, and just make them as useless as possible.
If I took shooting, I'd never aim for Knights, but rather just shoot the Battle Pilgrims. All you care about is that Relique.
I think Wild Riders are a great choice. Manueverable, and they can really hurt those Battle Pilgrims or get flank or rear charges on some Knights if necessary.
I'd consider Warhawk Riders. They'd be great for picking on the Battle Pilgrims, and if they get the Reliquae, they can really move with it (if you can fly off with it).
Of the two lists, I prefer the first.
You're right, Kiwi, about what to have in mind. And that's how I built the two lists. My main goal was to get the reliquae. My second goal is to get the grail reliquae with the knights in the way. And outmanuevering him was what I had in mind.
I don't have models for both WR and GR, so I went with WR. The plan is to let them charge the rear or flank of the pilgirms. With enough kills, a standard, a single rank themselves. They should win combat and start forcing break tests. The next round of combat, assuming there is one, they'll have two attacks apiece, three for the champ, and they should go first with their high initiative.
I was thinking of using the units in pairs.
FIrst, dryads and treekin.
Second, dryads and wardancers.
Wild Riders will be maneuvering for position on battle pilgirms (without making it too obvious I hope). And hopefully the support units will have dealt with any problems, or just moved past them, and come to support the WR.
The Waywatchers will do like you say. Shoot at the Pilgirms unless they really need to target some knights for whatever reason.
But I'm still partial to the second list. Dropping the wild rider noble frees up points for treekin, and in my past campaign games against this guy, the dryads and treekin were by far the most effective units against his knights. And as much as I'd like to avoid his knights, I know that that will be inevitable as the time goes on.
As for fleeing, the problem is that only the WWs can do it. Everything else is ItP. So it's really going to be about how I position my units to get into combat or distract his knights.
I think the spellsinger with multiple treesingings could be really useful. That could really pin his knights in.
Thanks for the comments guys. I'll post another list, a more traditional one around EG, to see how it looks.
I'd much rather have stuff that can flee (Great Eagle, Glade Riders, and Warhawk Riders) over some of the stuff you chose (Treekin, and Dryads), but I can see where your coming from, especially if you don't have the models. Just remember when you play, the only thing that matters is that Grail Relique.
I see your point. I think that having played only Vampire Counts has trained me to not think of fleeing as a possibility. My concern with these types of units is having enough combat ready units to take out the battle pilgrims. I'll post something and see what I can come up with.
Thanks again. Both of you have given me new stuff to think about. And I really want to beat this guy!
I know where you're coming from. I went from VCs to here too, if you remember me from the forums from a while ago, but that's one of the big things about Wood Elves, the bait and flee.
Os sure, I remember you from the VC forum. You've been one of the best posters there. Yeah, adjusting between armies is hard. Sometimes, I wish I had started with Empire. I despise the models, which explains in part why I chose another army, but it seems playing Empire provides a course in every phase and rule of the game. Still, I began with VC who only rarely ran or had launched missiles.Originally Posted by OmnipotentKiwi
So how about this list?
1250 Pts - Wood Elves Roster
Spellsinger General; Level 2
Branchwraith Level 1; A Murder of Spites; An Annoyance of Netlings
Warhawk Riders (3#)
Glade Riders (6#)
Musician; Standard Bearer; Horsemaster
Glade Guard (10#)
Eternal Guard (10#)
Standard Bearer; Eternal; Musician
Great Eagle (1#)
It has 54 models, 5 casting dice, and four dispel dice. Characters make up about 25% of the army.
I think that with this list, I'd have to be prepared to take the Glade Guard into combat if necessary. Still, finding good targets for their missile fire seems tricky, as they're practically useless against knights.
Playing at 1250 limits me to one rare choice, so the Great Eagle does away with the option of waywatchers, which means that if I want concentrated missile fire, glade guard are pretty much the only choice.