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I have noticed a trend in some army lists to include a large unit of Eternal Guard with a highborn and a BSB. This is several hundred points in one unit. Sure stubborn with a 5+ save and a 5++ save sounds great but it isn't that great. With a unit that big, it will have a lot of firepower/magic directed against it and will be eliminated ruthlessly.
The amount of point sunk into this unit means that you have very few units in your army to put the pressure on your opponent. They will ignore the min sized archer and dryad units and concentrate on the EG. By the time they get engaged there may be nothing left. Worse than this is that the EG are an Anvil unit. By not having heavy hitters, you have no hammer units to crush the enemy units with and thereby negating the reason the EG exist. I think people are trying to ensure that their unit hangs around but 700+ points is too much IMO.
I think that if the EG need a Rhymer Harp Highborn and a BSB to be effective then they are not worth taking in 2000pt games.
I personally don't think that a Highborn belongs in a 2000pt list. Unlike some Lord level characters from other armies, you need to kit the Highborn out to make them effective. So the average price of a highborn ends up being 240 odd points. Over 10% of the army!
What do you guys think?
Well,i do agree with you 100% with this arguement.But im going to be completely truthful with you.The reason people use big units of eternal guard is because they alrighty get a lot of magic and shooting againist it so there are more to do things mid to possibly late game.They also look cool and are a good painting centerpiece for 2k+ armies.:yes:
I would have to say yes, in fact you are right, but i always take them regardless. One is, if yes they are focusing all their attention on them, then the dryads/other units can run around freely With no pressure. The other thing is, if at least one eternal guardsmen survives, then you have a pretty powerful highborn, who is now stubborn. I must say to, if i spent all that time painting the little ____'s then i might as well use the buggers....They also look cool....um, yah i agree with you 100%, but unfortunatly i have to go against everything you say and take them.
"This sure ain't no pansy Eldar Armor, Son"
185th Cadian Armored Div.
"One Shot, One Kill"
Western Border Patrol of Athel Loren
What about a list like this:
Highborn, eternal kindred, rhymer's harp, AoN
He joins 19 eternal guard with full command and War Banner.
Noble who is BSB with Oaken Armor.
He joins 8 Wardancers with mus and champ.
Branchwraith with lvl 1, Radiants, Murder
She joins 8 Dryads
Spellsinger, lvl 1, 2 scrolls
8 more dryads.
10 archers with mus.
10 archers with mus.
5 dispel, two scrolls
Strong infantry unit backed up by Treeman and Wardancers. Dryads to help. Good shooting.
I think a big part of the problem is that a lot of people have become paranoid about the stubborn LD9. Seems like everyone is taking BSB's with treemen, and a lot of people consider a BSB to be an absolute necessity in blocks of EG. Sure, nothing hurts more than failing that stubborn LD9, but it just hasn't happened to me often enough to view it as absolute necessity. And since having the BSB is a necessity, then so too must the combat character be - gotta protect the BSB from challenges after all. And since we've gone this far, we may as well give the combat character the Rhymer's Harp, making the EG into the biggest combat uber-unit ever!
However, Skars is absolutely right about this kind of thinking. It's a point-sink, and it leaves you weak in other areas. As we all know, one unit will never win the game for you, no matter how tough they are. One bad panic roll and your entire battle plan is hosed.
The general attitude toward Eternal Guard blocks is, in my opinion, a losing prospect. The unit is deemed too valuable to easily lose, demanding that characters be tooled-up and added to make it reach its fullest potential. This, in turn, makes the unit too expensive to play. Something has to give.
I think a setup like the one David mentioned can work (and I appreciate his attempts to find some value in the Eternal Kindred). The Rhymer's Harp is great, but not a necessity, IMP. The reality is that, if you can keep the expense of your EG low, you don't need them to be your primary combat unit - all you need them to do is hold for a round or two.
I have found that, regardless of how tooled-up (or not) they are, opponents see a unit of EG and focus on it. I don't need them to cost north of 1,000pts for them to be a distraction.
I've been thinking about EG lately...i've never used them but recently bought 2 boxes of them and the command unit.
I haven't used them...becuase of the cost and the fact that my army would basically have to revolve around them in the way they are usually setup.
But... what if they were used as 2 units of 10 that each had a standard and were used along the side of a treeman?
If they attacked a unit together then you could potentially get ALL of the EG attacking, instead of just the front 2 ranks of a huge block.
Wood Elves Record (since i started counting)
Below 1000pts: 1-0-0
1000 - 1999pts: 5-2-2
Above 2000pts: 7-1-0
Good magic defence and good shooting. BSB with the wardancers is better, as long as they are close to the EG. The Treeman will also benfit if nearby. Small number of units means that you can get overwhelmed quickly.
This list relies on you having most of your combat units around the BSB for effectiveness. So your limiting one of the major advantages of the WE's, manouverability. To be effective at least 2-3 of these units must be in range of the BSB.
No pressure. The EG aren't really an agressive unit, they work best when the enemy charges you and then you countercharge. To charge them your opponent needs to be pressured to come across the board and fall for your trap.
A heavy magic army will exhaust those scrolls quickly and happily sit back if you don't come for them and blast away.
An army with moderate shooting and warmachines will probably cause you headaches. These is nothing in that list that goes after warmachines. Shooting them with archers is not a good idea.
There are a not than many models and nearly half your army is T3 with no save.
Also, the 19 strong EG unit will get whittled down fairly quickly. Even if you get charged and hold the enemy unit, then countercharge with something else (of the combat units only the treeman can negate rank bonus) you may win the combat but it will not be by much. Then they countercharge, your entire strategy revolves around making your 2 stubborn units pass their checks. I am not a fan of having all my eggs in one basket/unit.
I am happy to admit that this is one of the better EG lists I have seen but I think that their reliance on a highborn and a BSB means that they your paying around 30pts per model for them.
I would rather have galde guard with a banner and have something that puts some sting into the list and can countercharge if required. I think EG may have been a better choice if glade guard were skirmishers.
With a 5+ ward save this isn't likely to happen.By the time they get engaged there may be nothing left.
The EG is like a huge point sink that is hard to defeat.
I like to have a main unit that is capable of sticking against anything and everything. I've my EG surrounded and still win combat b/c my opponent can't cause any wounds.
All you need is one unit to counter charge and you can crush just about everything.
The highborn also acts as an uber character nullifier with the AoN.
The BSB might just be overkill but I think its needed. A 1/6 chance to lose the game is too much for me.
I think ultimately the 5+ ward save is underestimated. It means more combat res. and means they will survive to combat.
Even if the opponent hacks them down to only a couple models they will still stick until your reinforcements arrive and the opponent will only get about 150 pts for them.
I love getting to the end of the game when we calculate point totals. All of my small units have been wiped out but my characters and EG are still alive and so I still have 1000pts on the table.
I've just recently picked up my block of 20 Eternal Guards and have played and won 6 games straight with them. To be honest, they have been THE game winner for me and I love them
My unit of Eternal Guard is roughly 700pts-ish including a lord and a BSB.. and before you start a barrage of comments on how expensive it is, it has never let me down once. Even against an all-shooty dwarf army with Anvil of Doom today, it was this 700pts block of troops that stayed alive where everything else died and single handedly won me the game (killed the Runelord, a thane, a block of warriors, 2 blocks of thunderers).
Lord w/ Great Weapon, Rhymer's Harp, Light Armour, Shield
Noble w/ Great Weapon, Amber Pandent, Light Armour, BSB
20x Eternal Guards w/ Full Command, Banner of Dwindling
This is how I deploy them...
LNEEE L = Lord, N = Noble BSB
Basically, whenever I fight another rank & file troops that line up infront of me, the 3 models that's in base contact with my BSB will automatically strike last. Me and my opponents have all agreed that when both models strike last, we go by initiative order.. just the same way as if two models are strike first, therefore allowing 7 attacks of Str6 at WS7 to strike before those in contact have a chance of fighting back. Eternal Guards may be strengh 3, but their sheer amount of attacks they can get at WS5 cannot be ignored.
Ever since I got my hands on these beautiful models, I am never looking back anymore
Anima Tactics - try it out!