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This is NOT a "best army" question.
It's mainly a curiousity I have.
I always hear about WE, Bretonnians and Skaven being some of the "best" armies around, on the basis that they do well at tournaments.
I thought this implied that WE were just a strong army. But the more I read, the more it seems like these high placing WE armies are all just running dual-Treeman lists. Is this the case? Or are they full on points-denial lists? (I'm not sure what they'd involve, but I've heard about them).
And I guess, as an extension of that question, does anyone have any thoughts on the strength of a balanced WE list? (I know about the whole "it's the player not the army/list, but surely we must concede that it's impossible for GW to PERFECTLY balance each and every army book).
I ask just because, still having not made the decision between Empire and WE, I worry that games will be too easy for me if I take a "strong" army (ie one notably "stronger" than my opponent's army (O&G). And I also worry about my opponent having no fun because he just has to wait for me to engage at my discretion.
Yeh im interested too, are the uber lists extremely unfluffy (imagine invanden eldar without any wraithlords or wraithguard)? i'd like to see some of these winning lists thanks
Signed Sealed Saint
Fortius Quo Fidelius
Well for starters look at the amount of WE armies at the tourney.
The last few I have been to the WE armies outnumbered any other army in terms of presence.
Also, look at the quality of the player. Is it a regular tournament winner who is now using WE?
WE's are not a uber list for tournaments but they can do points denial very well. For those not familiar with the term, points denial involves taking few or no banners and having many small units. The idea is to deny your opponent the bonus points for capturing banners.
Most fanstasy players say that wood elves can get pretty carried away with their lists, i'm sure there are some i just like see one or two. u dont have to be ashamed or anything eldar have nigh unkillable lists too.
Signed Sealed Saint
Fortius Quo Fidelius
Wood Elves are an army that work very well. Their flexibility and adaptability makes them a very good tournament army. The army itself is well designed and, I think, well balanced.
It's been my experience that lists with two treemen do indeed perform better than those with less. However, that's not to say that only lists with two treemen will work. I have seen (and used!) many successful lists that don't include any treemen. Equally, my own dual-treeman tournament list (0 has been beaten badly, so it's not all about the treeman.
In terms of "points-denial", then Wood Elves do have an advantage there. There are few units that ever need to bother with a standard, because most of the units that can take them will almost always be beaten on static combat resolution anyway, so there's little point. Unit standards are therefore of little use to most Wood Elf units, and so players often leave them behind in favour of more troops. This is not done to deliberately deny the opponent the bonus points (although it would be naive in the extreme to assume that this doesn't help swing the decision).
As for your worries about having too "strong" an army; Wood Elves have plenty of weaknesses that your opponent can exploit - the major ones being lack of ranks and small units. An O&G player will almost always beat Wood Elves on static combat resolution, for example. All armies take a bit of getting used to, so I think you'll find Wood Elves just as challenging as Empire to play (albeit for different reasons). The only useful piece of advice I (or anyone else for that matter) can give with regards to army selection is pick the army that has the models you like the best.
Hope that answers your questions suitably.
It has yet to be proven that intelligence has any survival value. - Arthur C. Clarke (1917 - 2008)
Skarsgard brings up some good points. If there are more WE armies then naturally there will be more WE armies in the top. About over powered lists...Personally I think that two treemen is not fluffy at all but it is perfectly legal and ok. This means that each empire cannon is that much more usefull and the player has a lot of points tied up in two models. I don't think you have to worry about being over powered. Most WE units are T3 and have little to no armor, so even if they dance around more, if the player doesn't do it really well, he/she will get shredded up.
Only once have I really seen a WE army that was just IMO not fair. At 2k my opponent had 2 level 4 mages. He said that one of them was this special character from separate book that you were allowed to use. Maybe you can, but I think most would say that is just being rude. Then again he though we shoudn't place scenery, just leave it as it was (from when i just placed it all in the middle fo the table to it was out of the way). Basically the guy was taking advantage of the the whole situation since it was one of my first games and the scenery REALLY favored him. (Though I got a unit of Eternals to kill a unit of his wardancers and make his unit of treekin flee in one round!)
In conclusion, if the army is truly legal and you aren't taking any special characters, I think that most armies are very well on par. There is too much slight in the special characters IMO though.
Armies: Wood Elves, High Elves
Warbands Campaign 07: 1st
San Antonio Alamo GT
An army with 2 treeman would lack severly in the punch department.
Like any unbalanced list, it will do very well against certain army types and very poorly against others.
I wouldn't take a list with 2 treemen to a tournament b/c I would want to win more games overall than massacre/be massacred.
Last edited by Cyric the Mad; September 13th, 2007 at 06:02.
Thanks all for your intelligent replies.
And now, a related question:
I hear lots about WE lists that are really a pain to play against. They frustrate opponents.
One I'm aware of is the 2 Treemen + BSB list.
I also hear about the "you can't catch me" lists. I understand what the idea is, but what do these lists actually look like?