Welcome to Librarium Online!
I had a few games a week ago that I wanted to post, but the forums were down =(
Now it's been too long and I can't remember alot of the finer details,so no battle reports. however, i did make use of a paticular combination that worked very well, but I'm not sure if it will be consistant.
here is a brief summery
2000pts vs Dark Elves
This was against one of the veteran players at my hobby shop, and he also plays my army himself. it was a very tough match-up, as he knew my movement and tactics and how to avoid them and counter them. Mainly, he countered them by bringing 2 hydras and crisping everything. and capping my treeman with a 20 rxbs shooting down my treeman (4 wounds after "saves", and 2 from being burnt from the hydra).
The one highlight was this:
Highborn: Bow of loren, Arcane Bodkins, Amber Pendant, light armour, great weapon
I placed him in a unit of 10 archers that would move up 5" a turn. at the last minute, I moved him back into a unit of 16 EG (7 wide). He managed to toast most of a unit of CoK, with the Archer unit cleaning up the stragglers.
His corsairs carged my archers, who fled, and then were counter charged by the EG. His assasin popped out and accepted my challange, and was killed by the highborn before he could do his nastybads.
I have always found the alterkin with the BoL and AB to be a good shooter, but never really did enough damage to balance out his cost. This build worked much better and was definatly worth the points spent.
the EG have always been a problem for me, never really doing anything to make them worth bringing. however, i only have 16 models to work with and have always used them 3 ranks of 5. this past weekend i played a few games where i tried usning them in 2 ranks of 7, and they did much better. I was suggested to drop them down and add more ranks, but i am reluctant to do that. 7 wide gives 14-21 attacks (without casualties), and still offers a rank and standard for combat res (better than most WE units), with a possibility of unit strenth (something rare for my units to have). Also, only brining 14-16 keeps the cost of the unit down. Their lack of STR still hurts alot though, and is only partly countered by a character with a GW.
I want to know what other experienced WE players think of these tactics/setup/unit sizes. Has anyone tried similar builds or tactics and what were the results? are there variations to this that should be explored, or were these games flukes and these choices a rare benifit?
Well it an okay idea i honestly don't think it would work all the time he is way to fragile and hes slow since he doesnt have alter kin you won't realy be able to get him were needed and most armies will shoot the living crap outa that archer unit i think it worked okay since he didnt have any bolt throwers but i just think he is way to easy to kill most peaple that play in my area take hard list deamons, vc and though dark elves are hard i just think that guy will get killed my nurgle plaguebearers and other nasy things and once your general is dead it will be hard to get anything but a draw i just dont think it will work againt most armies and eternal gaurd are a pretty bad unit compared to black gaurd and phenix gaurd unless you have the fear banner (and thats a huge point sink) deamons and vc won't care about your stuburn on a 10 you will be needing snake eyes! once they have numbers
You Can't Put The Cat Back In the Bag
My first thought seeing that build is "Is he a fighter or a shooter?"
If he's a shooter, then you want to just buy him the Bow of Loren and Arcane Bodkins and have him shoot from some safe place, keeping out of combat. If he's there to fight, then get rid of the shooting gear. Every round he's in combat is a round where he's wasting points spent on archery. Every round he's not in combat he's wasting the Amber Pendant, which should be on someone that IS in combat.
I know a lot of people, with good reason, try to specialise their characters in order to keep them points-efficient.
I agree with tempest here. Although if I make him the shooter I usually give him the glamourweave item for protection as well. You really need to specialize in what you want him to do.
@Cobbler: Why does losing the general mean a wood elf will only manage a draw. Our generals aren't that expensive compared with other armies and we still have effective troops.
As for the eternal guard, they are a weaker unit in the army, but I use them on occassion. Whether you go 5 wide to get the extra rank, or 7 wide for the extra attacks should depends on who you are playing. If you are going against toughness 3 armies with lower armour saves, say like goblins then 7 wide will improve your combat res on average. If you are facing dwarves, 7 wide will usually reduce your combat res, so 5 wide would be the way to go.
I am right 94% of the time, why worry about the other 3%.
Many good points here.
@ tempest: i see your point. I have him trying to play two roles, and perhaps it isn't as effective as it could be. typically i speacialze, so this was something new for me. Still, it could be argued that being rounded in this manner is to minimize weaknesses, as opposed to maximizing strenths.
@ Sirkently: that item isn't one that i had considered until today (as it has been mentioned on a few threads). I might just have to give it a try and see how it works out. You also raise a good point with matching the formation of the EG to the opponent. I had them 7 wide against ogres, and it wasn't pretty. What is your thoughts on the size? as you admit it isn't the strongest unit we have, so does it make sense to dump more points into their size? I've tried to be picky about who they are faced off against on the board, so it is more likely they will get into combat with t3 troops.
@cobbler: The unit of archers gets shot-up anyways, nothing to really counter that. having a highborn in them while they get shot helps keep them from breaking. You do have a valid point about the fear causing armies, that was something i had forgotten as it has been some time since i have faced them. Obviously the EG do not size up against BG or PG, as they are a core unit compared to special units of higher cost. but so far, i have found them to excell at chewing up t3 core troops (they had caused 7 unsaved wounds against a unit of HE spearmen). Against BG or PG, i would bait+flee and shoot down, but with a stationary target like the EG on the board, it makes would make it much more difficult.
I also don't mean to be rude, but could you please make an attempt at punctuation? it is very difficult to read your input objectivly when it is all one giant run-on sentence.
i've tallied the points this combination uses.... 250 for the highborn, 120 for the archers, and 210 for the EG. thats more than 1/4 of my army, and after considering all that was mentioned here, I am forced to agree that this combination is neither reliable, versitile, nor overly potent. it worked well for me twice, but considering all the other factors that will come into play against other opponents, i do not think that the results would hold up. the highborn with the archers was very good at taking down heavy cav, and the highborn with the EG was very good at taking out low T core choices. But beyond that, their use is limited and not worth the 500+ points.
I still like how the troops themselves worked out, but the character useage should be changed. a cheaper noble with the pendant for the EG, no characters in the archers, and (possibly) a highborn alter with the BoL, AB, and Glamourweave off on his own would be a similar build, but much more effective (thought I may not go with this as it is pricey for a single aspect of play).
Thanks for all the feedback guys, really got me thinking.
For unit size, if I am using EG, I go all out to make them useful. Minimum unit size of 19, and I have a highborn and BSB in them as well for 21. So I can get 4 ranks plus one model, or 3 ranks 7 wide. Always good to have a few more if possible to make up for a few casualties along the way. But sometimes you just don't have the points, since as you said they are really expensive.
If using them, I go for a more combat oriented army. Treeman, Treekin, wild riders, wardancers and usually a couple units of archers for support.
But again, I don't use them often, because as I said, I don't think they are really that great a unit in the wood elf force, and force you to play a game that isn't really suited to the strength of the army, that being mobility.
I am right 94% of the time, why worry about the other 3%.
@ Sirkently Well when i say losing general is hard to get anything but i draw i don't take
that back because he is still very expensive and for me. I always use the treeman
ancaint (400 pts) but even with an elf general witch i personaly think sucks he is still
pricey and the extra 100pts for losing general and since now you dont have your lord
your pretty screwed and again, i don't think you guys play as many deamon and vc and
other cheesy builds as i do. because come on eternal gaurd are horrible they are about
as good as high elf spears i think a little worse ya, they have +1 ws but they have the
same amount of attk (since HE Spears, they strike in 3 ranks) and striking first is crucial with eg's
bad armor save and 12 points each that as much as a deamon! for me i think that lots
of dryads and a treeman anciant are better or maybe a highborn but only if he's got a
dragon other wise he is a freakin elf of who is pretty bad compared to every one elses
lord (Deamons,VC,High and Dark elves,Chaos,Empire,and even Orks) Have way better
guys and the wood elf lord is just or more expensive as them just saying the wood elf
list is getting out of date and maybe you guys werever you live don't have this problem
but most peaple are useing harder tougher lists and i play alot of this game and go to
tournements so i think i know a good deal about this game so don't think i am a idoit
just because i am a newer member to this forum!!!!!just sayin i think the wood elf lord is realy
not a good idea even if he stikes first or has alot of shot that ignore armor!!!!!!!!!!!
You Can't Put The Cat Back In the Bag
Ive been thinking about eternal guard for awhile now and I think I will try them in a battle against some demons.
My idea was take them as a unit of 28 plus the bsb and highborn, give the highborn the rymers harp and annoyance (to challenge other chars that charge), give the fear causing banner to the bsb, and a war banner to the eg.
Im thinking that with the ward saves and the highborn challenging against big guys, that against VC and Deamons that you might win through static (+6 cr not including outwiegh!) and make them crumble or phase .
I believe that as WE the main tactic is to kill as many as it can be possible on the first round of combat. Without that in mind, losing the combat has the highest probability.
One EG unit is not enough, and it will always be expensive and unreliable.
So we either get two, or none.
After that we build the tactics around them, 4 support units (2 dryads, 1 Wardancers and 1 Treekins or another wardancers), two for each EG. Also we have to consider the Heroes/Lords, other Specials etc.
I was thinking almost the same thing with using other combat units to help with flank charges.
But I don't see it as that unreliable, they are stubborn, have the bsb, and cause fear so don't have to worry about opponent outweighing.
I just thought against demons and VC that having a unit that would stick around if they failed the first round of combat would make it a little easier to flank.
That and they can soak up some wounds.
And if you so choose you can give the highborn a gw and he will more than likely do some wounds. The bsb might too, with his str 4.
I believe most other block units will be down by 2 at the beginning of combat so they need to do at least two wounds and you give none in return.