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Greetings fellow Athel Loren Dwellers.
My next Campaign Match up is approaching this weekend, and I am up against The High Elves in a 2000point match. I have played them a few times, and each time was a very different experience. With that in mind, I have a few ideas that I want to bounce around on the forums to see what others may have experienced.
Highborn with Bow of Loren, Arcane Bodkins, and the Amber Pendant
Level 1 mage with 2 scrolls
Level 1 Branchwraith with Radiants and Netlings
Alter Noble with HOTH and HODA
My character choice is pretty strait forward: Shooting and Magic Defence. In fact, that is pretty much the approach the army as a whole has.
I have built the Highborn the way I did with the plans of having him shoot things and then fall back into a Unit of Eternal Gaurd. This tactic worked once before against high elves. I was considering an Alter Build with the glamour weave, but I think i would like to benifit from the leadership insted, since I know combats will be close and the extra few points may make a difference.
This is where I am struggleing some. Since High elves always strike first and have low toughness and relativly poor armour, i want to shoot them up as much as possible. I am thinking 3 units of 10 archers and one unit of glade riders of 5 or possibly more. However, I'm sure to see some RBTs and that makes me wonder if my glade riders will last very long.
Eternal Gaurd is also another unit I plan to bring, about 16 strong as that is all I have. It is a little lower than what most people field, but it has worked for me a few times, and keeps the cost down for other troop choices. Alternativly, I might try a unit of Wardancers for the Highborn to hide in.
The choices of Combat Units is another hard decision to make. I think Dryads should do well, since they have a higher toughtness and strenth than wardancers, and a 5+ save against mundane attacks. They should do better against the shooting that comes at them, which leads me to believe they will be supirior to wardancers. They are also cheaper, so that means I can bring more. Wardancers, on the otherhand, have Killing blow and the extra attack options, which could come in handy against calv, killing characters, and the like. Their magic resistance is also an asset, but with my 5 dd and 2 scrolls, I should have that base covered.
Wildriders, again, are something I'm not sure if I should bring. THey have excellent killing power and manuverability, but I'm worried those RBT will eat them up. But If I leave them behind, I will miss out on their marchblocking potential, which I will need to buy time for the archers to do their work.
Treekin are something I rarely use, but might be good in this siation. their strenth and toughness should match up well against the H.elves. But they are expensive, and haven't really worked for me in the past.
I'm not sure if warhawks are a viable choice either. They would help take down the RBT crews, and marchblocking in general, but I don't think they would be able to make it there without being shot to bits. The same thing Applies to the giant eagle.
Waywatchers are a bit too expensive to field, and with RBT's having 360 view, it's hard to say if they will do any better than scouts.
Lastly, the Treeman. Hugh man, huge points. Should he come tag along, or is he best left at home to make room for higher numbers?
Right now, My list has the following:
2 units of dryads
3 units of archers
Eternal Gaurd, wildriders, treekin, and an eagle
and i definatly plan on adjusting it. I would apreciate all ideas of how.
I don't know too much about Wood Elves ( I have only played against them twice) but I've played high elves religiously since the latest codex came out.
One thing I had a problem with when I was going against wood elves with high elves, is the treeman. You keep him in the woods and move the woods (and the treeman) up to the high elf player and use the treemans strangleroot attacks against their shooting units. As long as you can get your tree singing off, you should be fine.
I like Dryads for the fact they are skirmishers with decent toughness so they can move through cover and jump out and force the high elf player to shoot them that turn or get charged the following turn.
Not a big fan of the eternal guard. They will be killed by any block unit that the high elves have because of the always strike first.
I wouldn't bring any of your calvary because of the RBT's the the high elf player is bound to have.
Once again, not familiar with the ins and outs of the Wood Elf army, but I'm very familiar with the High Elf army. I would probably bring at least 3 people, plu the treeman, who can cast treesinging so that you can make sure you get it off at least once a turn. The only thing you would probably have to worry about as long as you stick with the traditional strategy of using tree singing to move your treeman and to move the trees to give your units cover or keep them out of sight while advancing your army, are the block troops from the high elves. You probably won't be able to beat them in combat resolution because of their ASF/Str/high WS, not to mention the majority of your army are skirmishers. I would use the treeman and dyrads dedicated to try and kill off the archers/RBT's, while using the rest of your force to try to dwindle the high elf numbers from afar, then charge in and hope to finish them off.
Hope this helps
It looks like you already realized this but I think it would be a good idea against high elf players to catch them off-guard so I will post it. For the eternal guard I am assuming that you will be putting the Highborn with the amber pendant in there so it could be used as an excellent bait unit for those blocks of elite infantry the high elves have so that they charge them thinking they have them with ASF but then due to the pendant the highborn will get to hit them first hopefully making a big enough hole in their front rank for the eternal guard with the large number of attacks to attack them back doing a good amount of damage to them.
I agree with ginga ninja.
I've found treemen are good for a few things. First and foremost, eating heroes. Particularly against squishy elves.
Also, strangle root gets some very reliable damage. Effective 16" attack range. So, they're actually quite manueverable if you use them right, much in the same way as hydras.
Also, taking them will let you treesing with minimal singers, particularly if one is an ancient.
(my experience against dark elves was it took 3x it's points to kill it. But, he had his heavy cavalry tied up... speaking of, if you use them, beware the cavalry charge.)
Personally I feel that there are 2 ways to beat HE with WE.
1) Out shooting them, which imo will be quite difficult against your standard HE army since most I've played tend to take the 2 units of core archers and 2 RXB's. And you also may have to contend with some of the very good magic bows the HE can take on characters aswell. Machine gun alter can really shine against HE however given they are only T3 so will be wounding more.
2) Combo charges, This takes alot more finesse and requires a much more combat orientated army (Like the ones I use). This means using Dryads, Wardancers, Wild Riders and Treemen and some combat characters in there aswell. Also, its a common misconception that its pointless to charge HE units, this isnt true (except against spearmen). Taking away any charging bonuses from HE is very important, esp when it comes to their cav and chariots.
Its also important to have a target priority. I almost always try to eliminate dragon princes firstly due to their speed and the damage they can cause, I've usually found a well placed HoDA against these should cripple them, that or a machine gun alter will make short work of them.
Its important to learn what their special units can do.
Swordmasters = High Str attacks, but are slow and dont have a good armour save.
White Lions = High Str, Good AS against shooting, Treats forests as open ground (Like the WE do)
Phoenix Guard = Decent Str, Decent AS and good Ward save, ItP and cause fear
Dragon Princes = High Str on the charge, Very good AS, Magical attacks
I myself have always had trouble against HE because I use a much more combat focused WE army, and ASF makes it alot more difficult. This means I really have to charge their units with at least 2 units, usually 3 in most cases, this will usually mean ill out number them and will likely have a fear causing unit in there and cause a double 1 ld roll even if i dont win by a big margin.
Everyone has given you some good advice so far. I will throw in my pennies as well. I think there are two ways to go at it. Either a heavy shooting army, or a high toughness army. Or a combination of both of course. I would probably combo with glade guard and waywatchers for shooting, and dryads, treekin, and treeman for combat.
Units that will be good:
Units to avoid:
Going against HE is the one place where I think a waywatcher lord could actually be good. Setting up really close to RBT's with his 10 LD to cover panic tests can take out the problem quickly.
Not really sure you need the bodkins combo against HE. I would rather have either the amber pendant or amaranthine brooch.
I am right 94% of the time, why worry about the other 3%.
Ok, so the treeman is comming for sure. Thanks H.elf players for that bit.
That leaves on rare slot, for waywatchers OR an Eagle. It is hard to say which one, one is cheaper but the other can potentially start closer. I'll Ponder this, further feedback is again apreciated.
For Vargrim, My tactic with this lord setup is posted on another thread called "vianble tactic or just random luck". Essentially, he starts in a unit of screening, aproaching archers and then falls back into the unit of eternal gaurd when danger aproaches. the archers can stand and shoot a charge, or flee, depending on the situation, leaving the EG and the lord ready to countercharge/ shoot and then stand and shoot when charged. It worked once very well (against H.elves) and once not very well (against ogres).
For the record, my treeman is a walking artillery. He doesn't ever see combat before the 4th turn.
Sirkently, I thought the BOL/AB combo would be the solution to dragon princes or silverhelms, because I always struggle with heavy calv units and they do tend to whittle them down a fair bit. if these units are not present, then the combo would infact be a waste. I am bringing the pendant already since it does fit into the point allowance. The idea of a waywatcher highborn never crossed my mind, and is so radical I'm almost afraid to use it. The biggest worry is that he would loose his GW, and I've really grown used to STR 6 on my characters.
Everyone has offered some good advice.
I've had trouble with HE in the past but I consider them manageable now.
Shooting is your friend. Try not to shooting Lions, Phoenix Guard, or the heavy cavalry, but definitely knock out swordmasters and other lighter units.
I've never used EG, but it seems like a lot of points to spend on a unit that is not the best for fighting HE. With the lord it would do okay, but we have better things to deal with their combat units.
I would add WR to the 'avoid' section. HE have good magic and decent shooting. The riders are expensive, fragile, and not that great considering ASF.
Dryads are good, but be weary of the 'amulet of light' - it can really ruin your day.
Waywatchers and even a WW hero could be excellent choices. Marchblocking can provide more time to shoot. Also, you could put the blight of terrors on the hero to cause some troubles for them amidst their battle lines. Knock out the RBTs early to help the rest of your army, but WW don't have to fear them as much considering the -2 penalty for shooting at them.
I use the highborn alter with the bow/arrow combo with glamourweave and an enchanted shield. You have to watch the spells that aren't magic missiles, but he's relatively well protected. He is also great for taking out those units that you can't kill easily with regular shots.
Last edited by Rhoaran; February 6th, 2009 at 03:35.
"...and thee shall know the Emperor's might when thy enemies fall before thy guns. No crude Orkish blade can pierce thy anointed armor, nor any twisted alien resist the sting of thy sword." ~Major Kaelen Rhodes
I have revised the list, i'll post the spesifics on the armylist section.
One combo to watch for would be a Dragon Princes unit with the Banner of Ellyrion and Talisman of light. These boys will then treat difficult terrain as open, and as long as they can see a target, they can charge it. You will lose many of your combat advatnages against these boys.
However White Lions will be your main bane, they treat forests as open, and carry S6 axes, which will cause a lot of damage, even to treemen. If I were playing WE, I would load up on these boys, as they also get a very good save against arrows
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