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Ive been having remarkable difficulty going up against the new lizardmen.
We have relatively few ways to handle either magic or beast heavy lists and the LM come with both. (terradons are a tremendous pain as they have those rocks and are difficult to shoot down - typically screened + skirmishers + can land in trees.)
Stegadons have been a real pain as well as the slann.
Personally, what works (surprisingly) has been an arcane bodkin highborn on dragon. Dragon breath helps with the skinks on either foot or on the stegodon (S2 on T2) and the Lord's shooting helps somewhat with negating armor saves (stegodon or other armored units.
Treeman as usual do fine. As do wardancers (if they charge properly)
So how does everyone tackle this?
I think you need one of three choices for a lord when going against lizardmen. First is the treeman ancient, with netlings of course to tackle any characters on stegadons. Second is the spellweaver, with wand to wych elm to contain the magic phase. Third choice would be a highborn with the spirit sword to take out stegadons.
And terradons shouldn't be that hard. If screened, of course you can't shoot them, but they don't have -1 to shoot for being skirmished, as they are flying cavalry, and if they land in woods, well, nothing should survive in woods against wood elves.
I am not a fan of the bodkins combo vs lizardmen. I don't think it will ever get its points back. A dragon riding highborn is a good option. And of course our tougher troops should be the main option vs these new lizards. Treekin I can see making it into more list. Dryads will be good as normal. Treemen are always good to.
I am right 94% of the time, why worry about the other 3%.
Regarding Terradons - Under flying cavalry it states that they operate as skirmishers. further down it again states that they can move as skirmishers on foot (but dont ignore difficult terrain penalties). So Im assuming they get a -1 to hit as it is not states in the BRB. (am I wrong?)
Edit - AH, they are not man sized so hence do not benefit from the rule (page 67 BR
Also landing 2 inches away from any units in woods makes it possible for them not to be targeted as per LOS rules in pg 9 (unless you meant using athel loren lore against them)
I agree with you over the use of a spellweaver w/ WOWE and the high born with spirit sword. While i have yet to use the spirit sword, Ive tried the spellweaver combo multiple times. While it is practical, I find that it only helps somewhat.
My view is - if the wood elves are not naturally inclined to magic, taking a much needed lord slot to (barely) contain the tide of a magic heavy army, doesnt really pay off as much. (Granted, I always have the mandatory scroll caddy) May be wrong though.
Sirkently- your points on the highborn dragon with arcane bodkins are very sound.
BUT how about these points?
Breath attack - S2 on T2 skinks, hitting on a 4 plus w/ -3 armor saves (basically no saves) removes the need to hit skirmishing skinks (conventional -1 to shoot plus -1 long distance if far away), skink handlers ( typically also bunched up behind and removes randomizing hits), Stegadon crew (again removes randomizing hits and makes their save 6+ instead of 3+)
Protection and mobility - provides more than adequate protection for the otherwise fragile bodkins highborn, giving the chance to maneuver in a position without it being struck back in either combat, magic (even more important with skink "spotters" or conventional shooting)
Combat - A flank charge in support or a direct assault on whittled down units with the dragons attacks and GW wielding highborn (5 attacks from the dragon and 4 from the Highborn make 9 S6 attacks in total) could even finish off that stegadon.
Points Denial - It may never get its points back but flying around and harassing units do help somewhat. Granted its a huge investment (500+ points?) but at 2250+ games, it hurts but not as much as 2000. Plus with ward saves (and other typical gear), if played properly, those 500 odd points will never land in your opponents tally at the end of the game.
I have never thought Treekin before but perhaps i will considering that most Lizardmen weapons are mundane (short of their magic of course). In fact, I see a rise of more use for Treekin and wardancers over the usual Wildriders in the face of all these ridiculous new army books. Does everyone else see the same trend in their gaming circles?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I Don't think Mounted units get +2 str from a GW. I believe I saw somewhere that it is reduced to +1 str, as it is more difficult to wield while mounted.
I would hesitate to put anything near those skinks, as their poison blowdarts actually can hurt quite a bit. I used the Spirit sword High born in my last round against lizzards and he took 2 wounds on the first round of shooting. He didn't have the 4+ ward, but he did have a 4+ armour save. Even the Dragon took some wounds.
I also brought 2 scroll caddies, and it seemed to work decently enough. The first few rounds the scrolls were burned rapidly, and you will not be casting anything in your own magic phase (using PD to dispel Remains in play Spells), but if you can target the mages and hunt them down fast enough, it becomes manageable. A TMA would be pretty good lord choice aswell since you could give him the CoR and Netlings, upping the DD and still leaving a slot open for the alter noble.
The -1 shooting modifier for skirmishers has nothing to do with their movement type, it has to do with unit strength. Units of skirmisher models with unit strength 1 have the -1 to shoot at modifier. As they are flying mounts they are unit strength 2.
Wood Elves magic works great if you plan on using the woods. If you're not, then you're right, it's not worth taking. (woods can be both defensive and offensive remember.)
I too like dragons.
I think you're correct. Mounts only get +1 strength from a great weapon. I think they still get the strikes last rule too.. So, for mounts, they are completely not worth it IMO.
(and yeah, getting next to multi-shot troops with large monsters is usually a terrible idea.)
Yes. My mistake on both the skirmishers (i rarely face more than US1 skirmishers) and to the GW on mount point.
Getting next to multi shot things arent all that bad though if you believe you can handle it. In fact, when playing against LM, I think we should be focus firing on all those little supporting elements (skirmishers, flying) of the army as once removed, they will have blocks of infantry which WE can easily dance around.
We should be removing all the things that hinder our strength (shooting and movement) before we tackle the main line instead of spreading out fire/force too thin amongst multiple blocks of units.
So with that being said (and we've already briefly discussed hero choices, what other combo works well? rare's are almost always treeman (strength 6 and stranglerooting on the way in) with waywatchers (minor marchblocking and small KB shots here and there on armored units like temple guard).
Cores - I would say 3 units of 10 GG with at the very least, 1 unit of dryads. (glade riders if you want some harassing units which support the main charge via the flank or rear)
Special? I would tend to favor the wardancers over the wildriders but what does the board say?
Wild Riders v. Wardancers... depends on what you want them to do.
I use my Wardancers to take heavy cavalry (if I have an amber pendant caddy) or threaten the frontage of troops, as they are far more powerful on the charge than Wild Riders. However, from the second round onwards, Wild Riders have a higher average of higher strength attacks; also, they can break ranks.