Welcome to Librarium Online!
Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!
Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!
I am having troubles beating my friend who enjoys fielding several empire knights and their 1+ armour saves. So far I have tried giving a character Arcane Bodkins with minor success and relaying on Waywatcher's to roll a 6 on killing blow seems too unreliable. Does anyone have any tips on getting the better of heavily armoured foes?
Massed missile fire will bring them down, but that isn't very efficient. Machine gun highborne works decently well.
Better options include treemen, treekin, dragon highborne, alter noble with great weapon, and even wild riders/wardancers/dryads in a pinch.
Treemen, Treekin, Dragons, and Alter w/ GW can all punch through their armor and are particularly effective in a flank charge. The other units are less effective but can work, especially on the charge. If you can win a combat involving dryads or charging wild riders the knights will probably autobreak.
Really, if you look at the math one unit of 5-6 wild riders charging in the flank will probably be enough to break them. The attacks from the 4 riders and 4 mounts that can get into base to base will kill about one knight on average, leaving them with no one to hit back. 1 wound + flank attack + outnumber = 3 combat res. He might get 2 points of that back with standards, so you're still winning by 1. Even if you fail to kill even one knight, his attacks back are not that threatening and you'll still have the +1 from flank attack and maybe the +1 for outnumber. If you are packing a standard bearer with warbanner then it should be cake.
If you have to though, get them to charge something reasonably strong like dryads or a treeman and then countercharge with something else.
Arcane bodkins are good, but only if you are playing in 2k+ games where you can take the bow of loren also. Otherwise, killing blow from waywatchers and wardancers are a decent try. Leading them around by the nose with glade riders and eagles is another useful tactic. Treeman are always good, as is great sword wielding characters. I don't think treekin would do that well as they would have to take the charge and probably get plastered. Wild riders have a decent chance on the flank charge as stated.
I am right 94% of the time, why worry about the other 3%.
I was just wondering if u could use the 4+ ward save for wardancers when charged? If so it would be a good unit to use against lances, and they can use killing blow.
Yes, you can use the ward save dance the turn they get charged, but you'll still likely lose combat as you won't be able to do much damage back without killing blow. You're much better off taking the charge with a more expendable unit like dryads and then countercharging.
I actually disagree with you with respect to treekin. Even if the knights charge treekin should do OK (at least against Empire Knights... chaos knights, now that may be a different story >< ). It's not optimal, and you'd obviously much prefer a counter charge with your trees... but if they do get charged it's not an unmitigated disaster.
A unit of 6 empire knights with full command charges your unit of 3 treekin. They strike with 7 attacks, 3.5 hits, 1.75 wounds (if normal, 2.33 if inner circle), 1.46 get through armor saves (2.33 if inner circle), .97 get through the ward save (1.55 for inner circle). Your trees strike back with 9 attacks, 4.5 hits, 3.75 wounds, 1.25 unsaved. So you're likely to lose combat, but only by 1-2 points, and that's only if they have full command. If you can pass the break test, those knights are toast as they will barely scratch you now that they don't get the strength bonus from lances. Overall I'd say you've got at least a 50/50 shot of winning this combat (where winning is defined as any result better than not breaking in the first round), which is pretty good considering that the units are basically the same cost pointswise and they have the advantage of the charge.
The trouble is that Ld 8 at -1 or -2 is quite hard to pass.
Heavy cavalry will always be a problem. Several ways to deal with it.
1. Greatweapon wielding character in the flank
4. Wildriders in the flank
6. Massed bowfire
7. Arcane bodkins
9. Charging with treekin.
Inevitably you may need to sacrifice a smaller unit to set up a favourable charge.
Mirage Arcana Podcast
The "A Smart Player Will..." theory is a complete paradox. If we make an assumption that everything we do is outsmarted, then theoretically we can never win.
I went for the AB+BoL combo last tournament because how popular WoC was going to be.
My second battle (vs DE) I got the first turn and shot at his ColdOne Knights, Killed 2, They panicked and FLED OF THE TABLE!!!
VS the WoC armies, it was also pretty nice, Shooting down nurgle Knights like they're warhounds.
Without it, I would not have been able to deal with them.
Imo its the best choice because if you put it on a Alter Lord, he is extremely mobile allowing you to place the shots where you need them the most.
That way you can use your movement phase to dupe the rest of his army, instead of allocating all your units to the knights.
Vs empire, you hit 5/6 times, and wound 3/6 times, that will give you 2-3 dead knights a turn. In theory.
Typically the best answer for me is Wild Riders in the flank. When I take Wild Riders, they are six strong with full command and the Warbanner. Flank, banner, war banner and probably outnumber and any wounds I do is usually enough to turn the enemy into paste. Plus I only need to do one wound to negate all attacks back. Plus don't forget that Wild Riders cause fear for a whole turn when they charge. So if you win combat on the charge and outnumber, the enemy needs Insane Courage to hold unless they are ItP or cause fear themselves.
Heavy cavalry is a case where you'd rather flank charge than rear charge - even though rear charging gets you +2 to combat res. Most units of cavalry (besides Bretonnians) are five or six strong and deployed in on rank. If you rear charge, there's a good chance that your attacks with bounce off the enemy armor and then he'll get a lot of attacks back, which is the opposite of what we want with our fragile Wood Elf units. Whether you're using Wild Riders, Wardancers, Treemen or whatever - always opt for a flank charge rather than a rear.
Also I heard that a Highborne in a unit of Eternal Guard will make a juicy target for the enemy cavalry. Except that the Highborne is armed with the Bow of Loren, Arcane Bodkins and the Amber Pendant with a great weapon. You can shoot four times at the enemy with no armor save, and then again as a charge reaction, and then attack four times at Str6 before he gets to chop up your dudes.
While passing a -1 or -2 test at LD 8 is not easy, it's not *that* bad either. At -1 you have a 58.3% chance of passing and a 41.7% chance at -2. With a BSB, that gets bumped up to 82.6% and 66% respectively. Of course, if the general is nearby you're much better off.
This is why I came up with that 50% number. If you take a charge with treekin, you'll probably hold about half the time with no BSB and no general. If you have either present your odds go up dramatically. This also doesn't factor in the possibility of actually winning the first round of combat either =)
While I wouldn't bet the farm on this option, in the grand scheme of things it's not the worst thing that could happen. It's probably a hell of a lot better than getting your wardancers charged or some such =)