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I've read in some forums that taking two Treemen can be considered cheesy. The reason this comes up is I just recently had my ass handed to me by my buddy's chaos army. He was running two units of knights. This just played havoc on my army. Granted I don't have any war-dancers as of yet (getting some as a combined birthday-father's day gift). I was running pretty much all the models that I had.
- Alter Lord with bow of loren and arcane bodkins, great weapon and annoyance of nettlings.
-3 level 2 spellsingers with all the anti magic toys
-3 units GGx10
-2 units GRx5
-2 units dryads x8
-2 units dryads x10
-1 unit of wild riders x5
I've been able to beat him in the past, mostly by just ignoring his one unit of knights, But now with two, I have no choice but to take notice. I feel like the only can opener I have is the treemen.
Anyway, would be nice to hear everyones thoughts.
This would probably be better suited in the army list forum, but I think there are some tweaks that could serve you well -- although some of them would require getting some new models or using proxies/converting existing ones.
First of all, how magic heavy is your opponent? With 3 level 2 singers with "all the anti magic toys" you are spending a LOT of points on shutting down his magic phase. I'd consider dropping all of the level 2 upgrades as they don't help you at all defensively and even with 8 power dice you probably aren't doing much in your own magic phase. That'll save you 105 points right off the bat. If you are buying 6 scrolls you can probably afford to trim that down too.
You can also drop 2 dryads each off of your 10 man units to scrimp a few points.
As far as can openers go, your highborn and treeman both work. Wild riders and treekin can also do fine if you stick them in the flank, especially if you give them the war banner.
I might consider a standard alter noble as another potential can opener. He'll hit the flank and probably kill 1-2 knights on the charge. Combine that with some wild riders in the other flank and you'll have a good shot at breaking them. The hail of doom arrow should also be good for wiping out a unit of dogs or, better yet, marauder horse.
You have enough shooting to kill his warhounds and/or marauder horse pretty easily. Thus another good option is to shoot down those screens and then bait and redirect his knights with your fast cav. If they spend the whole game chasing your glade riders around while your highborn picks them off then you'll probably win pretty easily.
All in all I think you can do just fine without resorting to a second treeman. If he is playing a really hard list (most or all cav + tzeentch or nurgle magic spam) then I wouldn't think twice about a second tree though and a BSB to go with them.
EDIT: also, consider waywatchers for KB action + march blocking from the very start. Remember, his knight units are expensive. Even a vanilla 5 man knight unit with NO trimmings costs like 200 points. He's going to have to wipe out two of your units to make that up. If you can commit one of your units to tying up the knights all game either through movement or combat, you should come out ahead.
Last edited by swarmofseals; May 9th, 2009 at 04:49.
Well I think cheese is fairly relative these days....
My friend plays WoC and my other friends dad plays DoC and so far they don't seem to mind me taking two treemen.
And as for the subject of cheese, I feel that if you can use your book to field it then if you want to field it, most of my friends just see it as a challenge. What we usually do is the winner can't change his list till he gets beaten, so all of us learn to make balanced lists, and play better. If one of brings a cheese army, everyone either loses or comes up with a way to beat it with the list they already built. In the long run it helps all of us become better players and you always have a new challenge to look forward to
Nyxe, I like your no list changing idea.
We were just throwing all our models out on the table and going at it. So as to list tweeking, the only thing I can do is change out the kit on the heros and lords and do a bit of proxing. So that wasn't so much as a list as was just playing around with a lot of points to get a chance to see how all the fun toys work.
I have to say that the initial post was a bit of a vent also. Its hard watching you entire army get wiped out by two units and Throwing everything at said units and watching it all bounce off. I'm going to give the war dancers a chance to see if they can make an impact. Also going to proxy a few waywatchers. Most likly going to leave the GG at home. They are kind of spendy for as much as I get to use them.
As the sting wears off, I'm getting more and more excited about a re-match, with of course a few changes. Thanks for the input.
what mark does he use on his knights if any, by the way?
waywatchers can kill knights (1 shot in the eye)
you can also get the bow of loren, arcane bodkins setup which deals with armor.
An alter with a great sword on the flank does just as many attacks for a lot less and you could even give him the armor of the fey to deal with those ensorced weapons or just grt wpn, stone of crystal mere and helm of the hunt.
treekin do allright as well due to high str, high tougness.
I also use glade gaurd on them when all the other stuff has been taken care of (horsemen, dogs, etc) He just needs to roll a couple of 1's to start removing models. We can send a lot a of shooting his way if need be.
there are a lot of ways to deal with knights, other than just getting another treeman.
Last edited by buckero0; May 9th, 2009 at 14:58.
Next game I'm going to proxy some waywatchers and see how they do.
I think we may have gotten some of the rules wrong. I had the bow of loren and arcane bodkins and hitting wasnt a problem, it was wounding that was the problem. He had said that the knights had a T of 5, I needed to roll a 6 to wound. Knights are only a T of 4. Not sure if he has some kind of magic something that bumps it up, seems the chaos army is full of stuff to make stats go up and down. He left the chaos book at my house, I will have to give it a good look. I may go with a melee lord next time. I like the idea of tying up a unit of knights in combat. On a side note, during the battle my lord lost combat with one unit of knights, and fled into another unit of knights (are lords stubborn?)
One unit of knights had nurgle and the other had the frenzy. I would have been baiting the frenzy guys, but I did'nt find out until turn two, when he charged.
Anyway, I wish we were able to get together more, I really wnat to try out all these new ideas.
If he has a warshrine the knights might have gotten +1T that way, although that won't happen every game. He also should be announcing the ability when he is using it, rolling the ability and consulting the chart publicly. That way you know what the bonus is and where it is coming from. Normally the knights will be T4. Your machine gun highborn should kill 1-2 knights per turn on average.
If you want to find out if a unit of knights is frenzied without getting into combat, just stick a unit of glade riders in their line of sight and ask if he has any compulsory charges. You can do this anway to muck around with him even if he doesn't have to charge. Park those glade riders a few inches in front of his knights. He'll either have to charge them (in which case you flee and pull the knights out of position, giving you time to get your other units either out of the way or into their flank) or move around them (which will slow them down substantially, and you can just get in his way again next turn. This works really well for Khorne knights because they HAVE to charge, but it can do just fine even if they aren't frenzied. You just have to kill the screen first.
Characters are only stubborn if they have the stubborn ability. Remember to use multiple charges whenever possible to stack combat res in your favor. You really want to break them on the first turn. One unit in each flank is ideal.
Good points Seal, one problem I ran into with multiple charges is that the damn knights fled. It left two of my heavy hitters out of position due to failed charges instead of one. Granted this wont happen again, now that I know he is going to be using his knights as bait.
He did make the mistake of leaving his army at my house, think I'm going to break them out for a practice game. My wife always gets a kick when I play with myself...errr play games by myself.
Double check what mark is on the knights, they may be imune to phsycology if so they cant flee as acharge reaction.