Anyone tried a Sethayla type list? - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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  1. #1
    Son of LO Phaeron Typhoon's Avatar
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    Anyone tried a Sethayla type list?

    Well I am returning to my wood elf army to do something different from my Tomb Kings (who I have been playing exclusively for a while now.). I have a 1500 pt wood elf army but I am thinking about doing something different from my old list.

    Anyways, I was wondering if anyone has tried a sethayla type list. For those of you not on the up and up, I found this wood elf army type while browsing through asrai.org. Basically it almost completely focuses on being as fast and shooty as absolutely possible, the whole list is about avoiding combat.

    Characters are either Alter kindred or mounted on eagles. Core choices are comprised almost solely of glade riders with maybe a unit or two of GG. Special choices are solely Warhawk riders (in units of 4-5), and rare is all about Great Eagles and large units of waywatchers (units of 9-10 for the most part).

    It seems like it could be incredibly annoying for opponents. Of course with a list like this it has its weaknesses, but avoidance and points denial can go a long way against some armies.

    Last edited by Phaeron Typhoon; May 26th, 2009 at 08:11.
    "I am the architect of fate!"

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  3. #2
    Senior Member Gnomish.Id's Avatar
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    It will do fine until:
    a) you run into anything with long range guns.
    b) anything with long range magic.
    c) any combination of the two with really heavy units who don't care about S3, like Vampire Drakenoff-Banner Blocks.

    Problem Armies
    Demons: Tzeench Variants/Nurgle Variants will be the devil. Kill the flamers and stop the magic, you do fine against Tzeench. You cannot hurt Nurgle.
    Beasts: I don't know.
    Warriors: Flying Sorcerers can make your day unhappy. No shooting means you can run circles around them elsewise.
    Lizard men: Most variants have magic and mobile shooting. Problem. Particularly with the range-less Lor of Heavens.
    Vampires: Annoying no matter what, you can't wittle them down; and they're lethal with Wind of Undeath
    Tomb Kings: Screaming Skulltapult. Flying Hiero. Marching Gunline. Also, they won't stay dead either, so can't wittle them down.
    High Elves: Gunline can be a problem.
    Skaven: Gunline variants can out firepower you, alot. Depends on how many Jezzails and siege weapons they take.
    Empire: Don't know. :/

    Brettonian: Unless they use a flying caster, they will never catch you to hurt you. And you can make their peasants disappear.
    Dark Elves: You can out range them. With the Seythala list you'll outshoot them too. T3 also makes their life difficult. It may work on them.

    The Seythala list is a good list, but it's only one element. If you're going to take it, bring some hammers; like a dragon. You annoy them into moving out of position and then move units of WR or a dragon around onto flanks; when they are weakened you crush them.

    The run and gun elements do not have enough volume, or strength, of firepower to run on their own unless the enemy really can't shoot back, and has enough T3 units with light armor for you to pick on.

  4. #3
    Son of LO Phaeron Typhoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnomish.Id View Post
    It will do fine until:
    a) you run into anything with long range guns.
    b) anything with long range magic.
    c) any combination of the two with really heavy units who don't care about S3, like Vampire Drakenoff-Banner Blocks.
    Well, long range guns pose threats for lots of armies, and I would say that a Sethayla list is one of the best equipped armies to deal with it. Warhawk Riders, Waywatchers, Alter characters and the like can silence artillery and shooty units very early in the game. Also, with the exception of Lore of Heavens and Life the longest range on most damaging magic is 24 inches max and Sethayla is pretty good at taking normal wizards out as well with warhawk riders hit and running and alter characters.

    As for the huge tough blocks, they have to catch you first

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnomish.Id View Post
    Problem Armies
    Demons: Tzeench Variants/Nurgle Variants will be the devil. Kill the flamers and stop the magic, you do fine against Tzeench. You cannot hurt Nurgle.
    Beasts: I don't know.
    Warriors: Flying Sorcerers can make your day unhappy. No shooting means you can run circles around them elsewise.
    Lizard men: Most variants have magic and mobile shooting. Problem. Particularly with the range-less Lor of Heavens.
    Vampires: Annoying no matter what, you can't wittle them down; and they're lethal with Wind of Undeath
    Tomb Kings: Screaming Skulltapult. Flying Hiero. Marching Gunline. Also, they won't stay dead either, so can't wittle them down.
    High Elves: Gunline can be a problem.
    Skaven: Gunline variants can out firepower you, alot. Depends on how many Jezzails and siege weapons they take.
    Empire: Don't know. :/

    Brettonian: Unless they use a flying caster, they will never catch you to hurt you. And you can make their peasants disappear.
    Dark Elves: You can out range them. With the Seythala list you'll outshoot them too. T3 also makes their life difficult. It may work on them.
    Well my original statement in this post can be applied to most of the issues brought up in this list. I think a huge issue is that many players don't realize as much as they should that points denial is as effective a tactic as being able to destroy your enemy piecemeal. In particular there are definitely some problem armies like the Deamons and VC, though honestly, who doesn't have problems with these lists?

    Also in regards to the Tomb Kings, I play them and I can say that the Flying Hiero is not an issue, even with its flying movement it will get hunted down rather easily with the amount of flyers a Sethayla list can bring to the table. Any magic missiles the hiero is throwing is less magical shooting and resurrecting going on. Also, the army might be tough to whittle down, but once the hiero dies the army goes soon after.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnomish.Id View Post
    The Seythala list is a good list, but it's only one element. If you're going to take it, bring some hammers; like a dragon. You annoy them into moving out of position and then move units of WR or a dragon around onto flanks; when they are weakened you crush them.

    The run and gun elements do not have enough volume, or strength, of firepower to run on their own unless the enemy really can't shoot back, and has enough T3 units with light armor for you to pick on.
    20 waywatcher can put the hurt on tough things pretty easily with a little luck. The thing is that sethayla is a fluffy thing, and units that are all about getting into combat and staying there until the enemy dies is not part of that fluff.
    "I am the architect of fate!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnomish.Id View Post
    It will do fine until:
    a) you run into anything with long range guns. This is a problem... for any army - just welve's alot - though as pointed our more in the magic area, we can take out guns via hawks easily for the most part
    b) anything with long range magic.True but then as long as you take out their magic fast enough (alters/warhawks being unable to be chased should we lose combat go a long long long way to taking out mages quickly and efficiently.
    c) any combination of the two with really heavy units who don't care about S3, like Vampire Drakenoff-Banner Blocks. Vamps are dealt w/ march blocking and using standard ganging up tactics for welfs - we can take them

    Problem Armies
    Demons: Tzeench Variants/Nurgle Variants will be the devil. Kill the flamers and stop the magic, you do fine against Tzeench. You cannot hurt Nurgle. Nurgle will get wittled down in the same way as any other army... will just take time - though they will never catch us - magic def... kill as stated above
    Beasts: I don't know. I hate PUD! (a lvl one mage I can never kill for some reason) Our shooting takes out beasts pretty easily and combined charges w/ dryads leading the way will kill most beastmen units
    Warriors: Flying Sorcerers can make your day unhappy. No shooting means you can run circles around them elsewise. Warriors are the easiest new army for welves to roll w/ almost no problems due to no real shooting
    Lizard men: Most variants have magic and mobile shooting. Problem. Particularly with the range-less Lor of Heavens. These guys are an issue... as long as they don't go magic heavy welves stand a decen chance... magic heavy and we are in trouble.
    Vampires: Annoying no matter what, you can't wittle them down; and they're lethal with Wind of Undeath. Combined charges after seperating vamp units w/ woods leads to their destruction. If the Vamp player is kind enough to bring blood knights use glade riders to run them in circles... raising is an issue but with combined charges vamp units can go down fast
    Tomb Kings: Screaming Skulltapult. Flying Hiero. Marching Gunline. Also, they won't stay dead either, so can't wittle them down. The SSC isn't that big of a threat as we are mainly 1 line or skirmishers so its effectiveness goes down fast. Flying Hiero is no problem either really. With hawks and alters we will catch him, and we will kill him and their goes his army. Liche priests are also usually easy enough to get to. But the Casket will give us a fair amount of trouble due to the reason the SSC will not - skirmishers can see all of them w/ no problems!
    High Elves: Gunline can be a problem. Our real issue is the gunline agreed - but even then their magic will not be a problem again - charge with hawks hit the mage and flee after with no one chasing you down. Lots of bolts though are a problem. Can be dealt w/ in the same manner due to having lots of hawks being able to fly over the units.
    Skaven: Gunline variants can out firepower you, alot. Depends on how many Jezzails and siege weapons they take. Skaven if we have reasonable terrain set up are only an issue to do overwhelming, not so much the shooting. Terrain will stop most of that. The dumb lighting cannon will only hurt so much especially if they're dumb enough to stick them in the woods we give them on their side...
    Empire: Don't know. :/ Empire lists I have seen are either very tough or very easy... it all depends specifically on the list - tough to judge this one

    Brettonian: Unless they use a flying caster, they will never catch you to hurt you. And you can make their peasants disappear. We make everything disappear to to charging rears/flanks/whatever we want when we want - he should never ever catch you.
    Dark Elves: You can out range them. With the Seythala list you'll outshoot them too. T3 also makes their life difficult. It may work on them. Their shades/other ranged stuff will be the end of us to do multi shots out the you know what. We might be able to ourrange them, but then they bring a skirmishing hydra w/ super nasty ranged breath. These guys are an issue.

    The Seythala list is a good list, but it's only one element. If you're going to take it, bring some hammers; like a dragon. You annoy them into moving out of position and then move units of WR or a dragon around onto flanks; when they are weakened you crush them. I don't support the WR at all. GR along with warhawks will crush just as well once a unit is hurting enough from combined shotting. WR cost more and their dumb rule of forest spirits defeats their purpose of being fast calv. I've never played w/ a dragon so I cannot comment on that. I'm partial to adding a unit of wardancers or 2 small units of dryads for the charges - yes not very Seythala like - but makes the list 100xs more effective.

    The run and gun elements do not have enough volume, or strength, of firepower to run on their own unless the enemy really can't shoot back, and has enough T3 units with light armor for you to pick on.I partially agree on that
    I've found that once you add in a unit of wardances or dryads that give you a combat edge you have a very annoying and effective army. You dictate when the combats occur as well as to how much support that unit will receive after the first round if for some reason you do not break them on the charge. The list is hated in my local store as most other armys cannot force us to move according to how they want us to. Charging a unit w/ hawks that have a mage in it will not make your friends happy after you kill the mage - lose the combat - and then run away w/ out them having a chance to even chase you down once you've killed the threat in his army. And doing that to 3 mages on the same turn? You'll never forget that day.

    The list wins, you just have to be patient and learn when to pounce on units in mass.

    edit: Funny that the same things are said at the same time as I took a break to finish the work report before finishing up my post :-)
    Last edited by Boskie43; May 26th, 2009 at 19:46.

  6. #5
    Senior Member Gnomish.Id's Avatar
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    Herrrmmmm. Well, I'm not going to argue with you about everything. It seems that you disagree with me on almost everything.

    So, some special selections from my personal experience:
    First:
    Nurgle is characterized my magic missiles and high saves. They use 5+ ward, 4+ regen blocks and bound magic missiles which make you take toughness tests or they keep killing you. Their heralds are also casters who can also throw magic missiles. That's pretty steep crap if you're dealing with low head count T3 units. Because the Nurgle Heralds are the casters, they cannot be easily assassinated. When I played Tomb Kings, even with TK with two Ushabit trying to kill that stupid herald, it wouldn't work.

    (Re my Ushabit, it was an Epidimus Nurgle/Tzeench list. I had Chariots on one side, and Ushabti in the front. All told, 4 chariots, 4 Ushabti, and 15 plague bearers + Herald in the enemy block. I lost every single one of them to the block of Plague Bearers. They had it so they poisoned on a 4+, and each wound caused by poison counted as double combat res. It was very bad, and that was with T4 units.)

    Second:
    Tzeench has 4+ wards and has the potential to be faster than WE. Simple assassination I've found through experience doesn't work. Particularly if the Herald is protected by the changling, which he usually is.

    Third:
    The notion of trying to Attrition the Undead...
    They raise dead through lots of stuff that's a whole lot worse than our shooting; like Gattling Slann. Smart undead players do not bring weak blocks. They can take all T4 units.

    Fourth:
    Re the Tomb Kings, you have to remember, the Seythala list is a Cavalry list, it uses very few skirmishers. This does mean that the SCC can do damage. Admitedly, not a whole lot, maybe two to three at most, but that's half a unit gone. With two catapults, they can fire 4x per turn.


    That said, I think one of us misunderstands something:
    To my mind....
    Once you add Dryads and War Dancers in your fighting choices it's not the Seythala list anymore; it's a standard WE list. And yes, that list is very competitive, it's the list I run right now.

    The conclusion you can draw from what I was saying, is that Seythala works, but you need fast hammers as well as bait units. The conclusion you can draw from Boskie is that Seythala does not work, because to make it work, it's got to be not a Seythala list. :/

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    Oh please; do not take from my post that I said it cannot work.

    If that is what anyone takes from it - that was not what was meant to be said!!!!! For that matter I believe in rebuttling (so much nicer than the word argueing) you I only used seth. type units to show how to deal with it.

    A seth. list is one of the most effective Welf builds I have seen period. I was simple saying adding in a punch of either unit makes the list that much more scary considering the guy was asking how effective and realistic the list would be. I was rebuttling, but at the same time attempting to answer the original question

    I have played in the past a "speed" list aka seth. list that didn't have a single thing below 18 inch movement (or mov. 9 if you will) and I have not once gotten into a combat I didn't want to get into. The list works amazingly well from that angle and assasinations w/ warhawks is insanely easy. Especially since your hawks fly 20 and can charge in whatever direction their little hearts desire.

    I agree not everything is skirmishers - and a SSC doens't care - what I was saying was your 1 rank deep of 5 glade riders will not have a major issue due to the need to hit right on and then almost always scattering generally to far to do damage to you. I still stand on the WR costing to much and losing half of their rules to another rule though as a non-essential unit. Plus, if they want to shoot at the non-skirm GR instead of flung all over hawks - go right ahead.

    As to where I play we do not play with the majorly unbalanced non-playtested special characters in my part of town so a 4+ poison will not happen in most tournaments around greater ohio. As to the changling (if I am not mistaken only takes champions? I could be way wrong here!) Which is not worth it in warhawks in my opinion of a seth list as that is a whole bird once a couple champs are taken that cannot be taken = 1 wound or 2 wounds added to a unit for the points?

    Also, I think adding only 1 unit of dryads or 1 unit of wardancers hardly consititutes our list as a normal Wood Elf list. True, its not 110% seth anymore... but as I said, I was simply trying to answer the guys question to what would be the best use of the list. Most have significantly more than just 1 unit.

    Anyways, hopefully gnomish you didn't take anything personal... wasn't meant to be at all! I've read some of your posts in the paste and normally I agree 110%... just not this time.

    (and also... just as was pointed out by Demandred, your only pointing the two toughest - for all armies to find ways to beat - armies out there)
    Last edited by Boskie43; May 26th, 2009 at 21:37.

  8. #7
    Senior Member Gnomish.Id's Avatar
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    Lol! Well, thank you for clarifying. Perhaps I should have been a bit more open minded.
    I guess I'm used to seeing power list.

    Around where I live it's Nechrach Vamps/Epidiums Nurgle/whatever the most powerful build that can be made is. Heheh. So, when I think about a list, I keep asking "can it fight Nechrarch Vamps?" "Can it fight the Nurgle/Tzeench lists".

    Actually, I think a correctly built/played Seth list can. You'll just need some good magic defense and one or two heavy elements.

    Different note:
    No worries Boskie! I wasn't offended. Rebutting or arguing with anything I say is more than welcome; I'll usually respond in kind, unless I think I was an idiot. Really, if I'm wrong about something, or even if there's even a chance; I sure as heck want to know that I'm wrong, who disagrees with me, and why. -_^

    You're right about the skirmishing thing. Taking a few won't change the flavor.

    Sorry if I seemed upset or snarky! I try to keep my responses as short as possible when making multiple points. Sometimes I come off as being short, it's not on purpose.

    Hmm.. only other note:
    When I played my friend he said the Changeling worked on anything in base contact. He took my Dragon's statline.... it was very annoying. D:<

    EDIT:
    Okay... a bite emoticon happy I was....

  9. #8
    Son of LO Phaeron Typhoon's Avatar
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    I guess it does matter on where you play. In my area you dont have to worry alot about nurgle magic missiles. Mostly because the heralds can only be level 1 and the people at my store that play nurgle would rather spend their points on slime trail and noxious vapors than on the power level 3 bound spell.

    Like I said before, Sethayla lists do have their trump cards, just like any other army. But the most difficult lists (in my opinion) for sethayla to beat are considered the hardest for anyone to beat (VC and Deamons for the most part). So that isn't really an issue for me.

    I have been looking up sethayla related batreps and it seems to me that the hammer units that have been described in this list (Dragon, Wardancers, Dryads) havent been needed very much to win. I think a pure sethayla list can work quite well for the most part. I almost think the previously mentioned units would be a detriment. Units that only move 10 inches dont feel like they have a place in an army where the average move is 18-20 inches a turn.

    The other issue with that is that I would rather have the machine gun highborn than a large target dragon flying around, since it also keeps with the theme of "No particular unit in my army is worth a whole lot."
    "I am the architect of fate!"

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    Senior Member Gnomish.Id's Avatar
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    That makes alot of sense, the machine gune HB I mean. I just feel naked when I can't threaten the tougher blocks. And the Dragon makes a cool platform to launch the HoDA.

    Hmmm I need to test a Seythala pure list.

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    I don't think anyone on here mentioned that Britonians might be a problem with pegasus knights, but other than that they won't be able to do much.


    Also I don't think I know exactly how to use this list or just bad luck on my part, but i used it against the new warriors and it did very well up until turn 4 then he started to catch my units and obliterate them. I just didn't have enough humph to pick off the warriors or his knights, and his magic just kept destroying my units when it went off .

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