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So I have faced a unit of 6 flamers a couple times and I seriously do not know what the hell to do about them other than create the 2ft safety zone around them....
What experience have you guys had against them and what (if any) solutions have you come up with to kill these pesky daemons?
Waywatchers are a decent solution, especially if you can position them between 13 and 15" away from the flamers. Assuming you are in soft cover, the flamers will be hitting on 6's at short range and 7's at long range. If you can manage hard cover that's even better. Killing blow is very effective against them because of their two wounds.
Beyond that, you can use terrain and line of sight to get close and then charge them with multiple units. One is going to get vaporized by the stand and shoot, but the rest should make it. Of course, this is not easy to pull off and will still result in you losing units.
Another potential solution is an alter character with the briarsheath item. Charge out of cover from over 12" away and they will have a lot of trouble hitting you (-1 long range, -1 stand and shoot, -1 single target, -1 soft cover, -2 briarsheath = -6 to hit). Once you are in combat you aren't out of the woods though. You will probably do fine on the first round, but since the enemy is unbreakable you'll be in trouble after that. You can take the stone of the crystal mere to cut down the expected incoming wounds to about 1/3 wound per turn, which will probably allow you to keep winning combats. Alternately you can take the fimbulwinter shard, which means they will be hitting you on 6's in close combat which cuts down the expected incoming wounds to about 1/2 a wound per turn. Not as good as SotCM, but at least you won't be totally screwed if you fail a ward save.
A further option is to use the armor of the fey instead of the briarsheath. You'll still be at -4 to hit when charging out of cover (ie: they will be hitting on 7+, for 1.75 hits per average on the stand and shoot, with the armor of the fey cutting that down to half a wound). Armor of they fey alone in close combat will reduce incoming damage to half a wound per turn, or a quarter of a wound per turn when combined with the fimbulwinter shard.
A final option is to use a dragon rider highborn with either the glamourweave item or the armor of the fey. They'll be hitting on 4's when you charge from long range (5's if you charge from cover), which means they will put an average of one wound on the highborne from the stand and shoot. But once you get into combat, you'll easily eat them alive -- especially if you take the spear of twilight.
I think the Dragon Highborn with armor of the fey and spear of twilight (and whatever else you want) is a pretty interesting choice against daemons.
Interesting ideas. The solo character is a pretty decent idea but yeah... getting there in one piece is tough... and if you lose you combat, autobreakcity!
The lord on the dragon probably is the best choice. I don't like to take the dragon because of the -comp you are going to get for taking it in a tournament. Then again, taking a dragon would put me in the ranks of seeing bloodthirsters... which is even worse!
I think the best bet is to just avoid them. We have the advantage of picking out fights and some we just can't win.
I like the solo character with the briarsheath as well. The amber pendant could help in protracted combats.
I would point out though that the armour of the fey won't help vs. the shooting attacks, as it only works in close combat.
The other option of course is just to shoot the crap out of them. Waywatchers would seem like a good idea. And of course glade guard.
I am right 94% of the time, why worry about the other 3%.
Yeah, shooting the crap of them works really well if you can afford to do so. The problem is that there are so many other units that you also have to shoot the crap out of!
Now, if you're packing a straight up bowline with 100 some glade guard and 20 waywatchers, then maybe you'll have enough fire to go around =)
And yikes, you're right about armor of the fey. That's not a very viable solution then. Amber pendant is nice though, albeit a bit too risky to rely on alone IMO -- you're average wounds caused per turn is about 1.5, and you need to cut down a whole model to reduce your expected incoming wounds to .5 or so. Given the autobreak on a lost combat (and you need to have at least one more wound than the other guy due to outnumber), I think amber pendant is a bit too risky.
Of course, you really need to charge a second unit in on turn 2 of the combat. Dryads or wardancers are ideal, although wild riders will do. I might not send in treekin or a treeman because the flamers can actually do a lot of damage to them in close combat.
Yeah seriously... Is it 2 str 5 attacks or just one? Either way... insane.
it 2. theyre beardy as hell. if an alter kindred with glamourweave and 2hw should destroy a unit of them. minus 1 to hit him and assuming you have an enchanted shield with light armour you'll get a 5+ save and a 4+ ward save against them.
throw him into combat, a further minus1 to stand and shoot with the abouve saves, and then they have to pass their ld7 or hit you on 6s, as opposed to 5s. then 5 attacks hitting on 3s wounding on 4s or 4 attacks hitting on 3s wounding on 2 should mince them, you only need to kill 2 to stop their attacks, or even one to be safe.
not the most effective but well worth a shot. treeman branches hurt them, and so do short range Glade guard. actually.....so do wardancers and dryads.....but you have to catch them first.
Single characters and a Dragon is not a good idea, if your giving them a stand and shoot reaction your solo characters going to to die, and your SoCM on your dragon is probably going to get broken and your highborn will potentially start taking wounds, if your not giving them a stand and shoot reaction, well they would of been shooting at you in their turn anyway. And yes, flamers have 2 str 5 attacks, against 6 flamers, there is no way any wood elf unit which charges them is going to get out unscaythed without a massive amount of luck.
Unfortuantly the best way to attack them is with magic, which wood elves really cant do much at all since our own lore only has 2 damage spells.
Dont forget that flamers only have a short 18" range, if you can keep them at a distance for 1/2 turns you can minimise some of your loses.
I would say take them on with wardancers if you can get them there without being shot totally to pieces first.
Ethsar -- while the single character and dragon solutions aren't foolproof, they are a lot better than you give them credit for if you take the right items. Check the math!
I like using Way Watchers. As stated above. with KB and the -1 skirmish and -1 forest stalkers makes them pretty viable especially in any sort of cover.