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Hello there, wood elf players!
I play dark elves, and I have just played against my friend the last couple of days. (1000p vs 1000p) He plays Wood Elves and it didnt go well for him - actually he suffered two solid defeats and two massacres at the hands of my soldiers.
He lost his motivation, considering whether dark elves has a better sortiment of troops, who are generelly better for their points cost.
His points were:
1) How do you deal with a Dark Elf assassin with Rune of Khaine and hatred. He has 5-7 attacks with ws9 and s4, always strikes first and even get rerolls, killing any lightly armoured wood elves before they even strike. He only costs 121 points and earned 1500 vp in the three games I used him.
2) Dark Magic tears wood elves to pieces. It is nearly impossible to get sufficient magic defence for him. A dark elf level2 sorceress can get 7 powerdices + power of darkness every turn with sacrificial dagger, and she is well protected in a spearman unit! (possibly even with an assassin!).
3) Dark elf Spearmen are so cheap that it doesnt really pay off to even shoot at them and if they get in combat their ranks will kill everything - two treeman were accounted for.
4) The hydra is nearly unkillable, fast and has a s5 flame attack to kill anything hiding in the woods. And its 100 points cheaper than the treeman.
5) Dark riders are better in close combat and for shooting than glade riders and cost less...?
So I would like to know your opinions. Is he a bad tactican or do Dark Elves hold advantage over Wood Elves?
1) I havn't played against he dark elves but if you knew where the assasin was, an amber pendant alter may be able to take him out since the pendant causes the assasin to strike last if he is in base contact with the alter
2) A good standard way of getting magic defence for woodelves is to take a branchwraith lvl 1 wizard with a cluster of radients, and to take a lvl 1 spellsinger with 2xdispell scrolls
In total this will give 5xdispell dice and 2xdispell scrolls for a total of 270 points (130 spellsinger and 140 brachwraith)
3) Flank charges, flank charges and more flank charges. IMO, woodelf units are less powerful/points than other armies in straight up combat. Woodelves typically have the advantage of more manouverability on the battlefield with fast cavalry and skirmishers. Flank charges are often win the battles for me. My personal favourite is 6 wild riders w/ war banner hitting the flank.
4) Becareful with units hiding in the woods, I'm not saying this is necisarily what you mean by hiding in the woods, but breath weapons still require Line of Sight to use, so make sure you can see atlease one model from the unit.
As for killing the hydra, they seem to be a pain.
I did some mathhammer to see how many glade guard shots it would take to bring one down and it doesnt seem like the best way to go.If your glade guard are in short range, I would take a volley of shots because a unit of 10 is statistically going to take one wound away from the hydra.Code:5 failed regen saves 3/6 = 10 10 failed armor saves 3/6 = 20 20 wounding shots 1/6 = 120 120 hits at long range 4/6 = 180 180 shots at long range 5 failed regen saves 3/6 = 10 10 failed armor saves 4/6 = 15 15 wounding shots 2/6 = 45 45 hits at short range 5/6 = 54 54 shots at short range
Avoidence may be the best option, or possibly setting up a flank and a rear charge at the same time for maximum combat resolution.
5) I don't know why dark riders are cheaper, They have the exact same stat block as glade guard but with the hatred they are indeed better in close combat. They are both fast cav, and repeater crossbows are in theroy better than longbows (assuming they are both in range to fire). I guess this goes back to my previous point of wood elf units being more expensive pointwise but in this case they don't have any more manouverability and I cant see any advantage glade riders have over dark riders unless theres alot of trees (but anyone who plays against wood elves would never allow that )
Well, I think its a little of both....your units do seem to be better, but you can still beat them soundly about the head with some good tactics.
the hydra while a pain can be taken by a treeman. use one volley of glade guard and maybe a strangleroot to take away a wound or two, this will take away the strength of the breath weapon and allow the treeman to engage it with minimal risk of catching on fire .
the next volley should be used to take out the dark riders as they are still lightly armored and t3.
As for the magic ive just used an alter to run in and suicide to kill the caster. If the assasin is in that unit then it will suck but, im not sure but doesn't the assasin only strike first when he pops out? So that takes that threat away kind of and you can shoot the crap out of the spearmen to cause a panick check.
And dryads are your friends against darkelves they wreak havoc with thier BS and t4 helps a bit . Use them to shield units from the magic and arrows.
Oh and never attack the black gaurd with anything, if they have the always strike first banner then you will get messed up even if you get a flank charge.
I have found that wardancers, when led by a hero with the same kindred and when wearing the Amber pendant and at a strength of around 11, excel at neutralising the hydra. Use their skirmishers ability to be 1" apart to minimize casualties from the breath weapon and then charge in, use the dance where they get 1 more attack, 16 attacks hitting on 3s, wounding on 5s (+1 str first round) and another 4 attacks hitting on 3s wounding on 4s will make short work of any hydra.
Incidently this formation also works well as fire control, 10" in any direction and opponents in base contact strike last, assassins are a thing of the past.
In bigger games I have found that a lord lvl spellweaver with lore of beasts works eqully well (beasts cower 8+ can't move or attack)
He who controls the past, commands the future,
He who commands the future, conquers the past.
You're right on about the spellweaver but I have my doubts about the wardancers.
That wardancer unit is going to cost a LOT more than the hydra and will only cause an average of 1.74 wounds to the beast on the charge (and thats assuming they get to charge -- the hydra has higher movement. When the hydra and handlers strike back, they'll kill an average of 3.86 war dancers (and could easily pick off the hero if they wanted). I'm having a hard time seeing the war dancers winning this combat more than 10-20% of the time.
Two scroll caddies, stop power of darkness every turn, stop chill wind, let other stuff go. I'd charge the unit with something expendable and see if the assassin shows himself. If so, great, I know where he is and can avoid him. Otherwise, pile attacks on the sorceress.2) Dark Magic tears wood elves to pieces. It is nearly impossible to get sufficient magic defence for him. A dark elf level2 sorceress can get 7 powerdices + power of darkness every turn with sacrificial dagger, and she is well protected in a spearman unit! (possibly even with an assassin!).I whittle them down with shooting and then pounce on them. I'd rather tangle with them than Black Guard or Executioners. With a rank or two lost, they're not much of an issue. Treemen shouldn't be going it alone, maybe for one turn at most while dryads or something move in to support. A treeman can't do enough damage to reliably force break tests. He ends up taking too many himself.3) Dark elf Spearmen are so cheap that it doesnt really pay off to even shoot at them and if they get in combat their ranks will kill everything - two treeman were accounted for.Hydras are tough. Dryads are good here. They're cheap so you don't lose a lot if they die. They can do wounds. And enough shooting will hurt anything. Once the hydra rolls enough dice it's going to fail a test sooner or later. Once that first and then second wound is on there, it's not nearly so fierce. Also you just need to survive the first round against it. Then you can pile on flank and rear, letting you target the handlers and win through combat res.4) The hydra is nearly unkillable, fast and has a s5 flame attack to kill anything hiding in the woods. And its 100 points cheaper than the treeman.Yep, they are. Typical dark elf cheese.5) Dark riders are better in close combat and for shooting than glade riders and cost less...?Personally, I think WEs are well-suited for dealing with DEs, though hydras and assassin are the real nuts to crack. As to your question in general, though, I think DEs have advantages over most armies. They were really powered up.So I would like to know your opinions. Is he a bad tactican or do Dark Elves hold advantage over Wood Elves?
Mabye I was just very lucky but 2/3 times they killed the hyrda and on the 3rd they did 3/5 wounds. Also it doesn't really matter if the hyrdra gets the charge or not does it as the noble had the amber pendant.That wardancer unit is going to cost a LOT more than the hydra and will only cause an average of 1.74 wounds to the beast on the charge (and thats assuming they get to charge -- the hydra has higher movement. When the hydra and handlers strike back, they'll kill an average of 3.86 war dancers (and could easily pick off the hero if they wanted). I'm having a hard time seeing the war dancers winning this combat more than 10-20% of the time.
Plus forms a handy unit to perform hammer and anvil with.
He who controls the past, commands the future,
He who commands the future, conquers the past.
I don't find DE armies to be that difficult most of the time. Really heavy magic can be a hassle, but that is about all. Other than that, we are fairly evenly matched, though since they have a new book, there troops are a little cheaper than ours for the same thing.
As for hydras, treemen are probably the best bet. Or a spirit sword wielding highborn. Or a dragon of course. For the fast cavalry, hail of doom arrow is a good choice against one of the units. The spearmen should just be avoided until everything else has been dealt with.
Oh, and thanduil, it matters that the wardancers get the charge, since they are only strength 4 when they charge, meaning they would need 5's to wound, instead of 6's when they don't charge.
I am right 94% of the time, why worry about the other 3%.
EDIT: Beat to it by sirkently =)
From our experience, the dryads really seemed to be the thing against Dark Elves. He ran a unit of 10, and they never failed to impress me, especially taking into consideration their low point cost. They managed to kill the hydra twice, partly because of bad luck on my part, and were always the last unit standing. Spearmen, however, make light work of them, and I dont really see how you should be able to completely avoid the spearmen, considering their good movement. He had his problems!