Fighting VC - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

Welcome to Librarium Online!

Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!

Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!


Register Now!

User Tag List

+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 10 of 10

Thread: Fighting VC

  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Age
    34
    Posts
    943
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputation
    45 (x2)

    Fighting VC

    I can not seem to figure them out. My army features 2 EG blocks and no treeman so obviously my army is softer than most but I have been able to consistently compensate. However, I just can not seem to figure out a sure way of beating them. I guess I just have to stall until I can hit a unit from all four sides, but that is incredibly hard seeing as they are a turn 5-6 army as well. The only time I have had a very good plan to fight them was when I was in the running to win a gt but dice screwed me at that time. Can anyone with a fairly decent record against vamps lend some insight?

    2009 Tourny records (W-L-D) (20-4-4):
    9/56, 1/12, 2/14, 4/14, 32/82, 1/6, 16/72

  2. Remove Advertisements
    Librarium-Online.com
    Advertisements
     

  3. #2
    Senior Member Gnomish.Id's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Space
    Age
    30
    Posts
    505
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputation
    43 (x2)

    The plan I see most times is kill the general. That's hard, but a TMA can do it (if the dude does not have the balefire spike), as can a dragon. But, a good player won't let you.

    It also depends on the vampires you're fighting. They have alot of flexibility in their combat and magic phases, and can really book it in the movement phase.

    I have trouble against them too. The real issue for me is their dance macabre (as I've said about ten times now, I swear it doesn't annoy me. )

  4. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Age
    34
    Posts
    943
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputation
    45 (x2)

    Dude I told you my army, "no treeman". The only way I can kill the general is rack up combat res by killing his unit, but there is no way I can kill the rest of his army fast enough allowing me to do that. Vanhel's is enough to counter for me, I hate the raises.
    2009 Tourny records (W-L-D) (20-4-4):
    9/56, 1/12, 2/14, 4/14, 32/82, 1/6, 16/72

  5. #4
    Senior Member sirkently's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    4,361
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    494 (x8)

    That isn't the only way to kill the general. Suicide runs by warhawk riders, wild riders, even glade riders have a chance to take him out. Once he is gone, the army will start to crumble. If you take the hail of doom, make sure to save it until you have whittled down a unit far enough for the arrows to finish it.

    Otherwise, just pick off units on the edges. Killing blow with waywatchers and wardancers any cavalry units. Multi charging units of zombies can usually wipe them out.

    I haven't had too much trouble with VC myself. Always a close game. Of course your major problem is the inclusion of eternal guard. One unit is bad enough, two make your job twice as hard.

    SirKently
    I am right 94% of the time, why worry about the other 3%.

  6. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Age
    34
    Posts
    943
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputation
    45 (x2)

    The odds of wild riders, warhawk riders, or dancers (assuming he has the cuirass) of killing the general are incredibly small and are in no way worth it. Zombies are a weak choice and thusly are easy to kill. I usually use my HoDA on wraiths, and the knights can be regenerated. I play in tournament environments with finely tuned armies with even better generals. Ghouls and skellies own stuff, wraiths can run through lots of stuff, the knight easily outrange dancers and can go through terrain like them. No offense but I have not read anything useful.
    2009 Tourny records (W-L-D) (20-4-4):
    9/56, 1/12, 2/14, 4/14, 32/82, 1/6, 16/72

  7. #6
    Senior Member Akaroth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Age
    25
    Posts
    352
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputation
    47 (x1)

    With a combat vamp lord you could go anti-magic enough to get an edge over him w/ the elm wand, meaning you could kill units fairly well with shooting or stop his movement spells. If he goes heavy magic he won't have the cuirass, so use wardancer highborn, blades of loec and the moonstone.
    "Knights had no meaning in this game. This wasn't a game for knights."


  8. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Age
    34
    Posts
    943
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputation
    45 (x2)

    This is not in the army list section. I know what my list is, I want tactics, not being told I need stronger list.
    2009 Tourny records (W-L-D) (20-4-4):
    9/56, 1/12, 2/14, 4/14, 32/82, 1/6, 16/72

  9. #8
    Senior Member sirkently's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    4,361
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    494 (x8)

    Quote Originally Posted by Orkimedes41792 View Post
    This is not in the army list section. I know what my list is, I want tactics, not being told I need stronger list.
    Well, if you tell us what is in your list, it might be easier to give you some tactics to use with it.

    SirKently
    I am right 94% of the time, why worry about the other 3%.

  10. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    390
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputation
    29 (x1)

    It would also help if you told us what kind of VC lists you are facing. There are a lot of different ways of building VC, and they take different strategies to defeat.

    I recently played a test game with the following lists:

    Standard Alter
    Amber Alter (briarsheath is the second magic item)
    Noble w/ Alter, GW, LA, Shield, Hunter’s Talon, Pageant of Shrikes
    Scroll Caddy

    4x 10 Glade Guard
    5x 8 Dryads

    6 Wild Riders w/ mus, std, war banner
    6 Wild Riders w/ mus
    8 Wardancers w/ mus
    3 Warhawk Riders

    Great Eagle


    VS:

    Vampire Lord
    - Lv.3, Helm of Commandment, Walach’s Bloody Hauberk, Sword of Might, Summon Ghouls, Dark Acolyte, Master of the Dark Arts

    Vampire
    - Dark Acolyte, Summon Ghouls, Flayed Hauberk, Black Periapt

    Necromancer
    - Extra Spell, Dispel Scroll, Dispel Scroll

    15 Ghouls

    15 Ghouls

    16 Ghouls

    16 Ghouls

    16 Ghouls

    Corpse Cart
    - Balefire

    6 Black Knights
    - Full Command, Warbanner

    6 Black Knights
    - Full Command, Royal Standard of Strigos

    Varghulf

    Varghulf


    While this is not the most powerful VC list in the world it's pretty darn strong -- 12 power dice most turns, double Varghulf, double black knights, and incredible Invoke spam power.


    I ended up winning the game in a near massacre, although a good chunk of that was due to good luck. That said, he did cause two of my alters to flee and killed the third in the last turn to save himself from a massacre, so the luck wasn't entirely on my side.

    I also won this game without killing his general. In fact, I didn't kill the other vampire either.

    Here is how I did it:

    1. I deployed deceptively. I started deploying from left to right with mostly basic units (glade guard, dryads, my eagle, etc.). He had fewer units than me, so I got to deploy a bunch of stuff at the end, which I deployed almost exclusively on the right side of the board. So basically I very much overloaded one flank. But I put my eagle on the other flank, which is key. He deployed symmetrically with his ghouls in the center and a unit of black knights and a Varghulf on each flank.

    2. I started the game by getting my eagle behind his left flank as quickly as possible. This allowed me to slow down his heavy hitters on that side of the board while I collapsed his right flank with the bulk of my force. His flank deployment on each side had the Varghulf as the outer unit and the Black Knights as the inner unit. So on his right flank, the Black Knight unit was the key. I concentrated all of my firepower in the first two turns on taking out the right flank Black Knights and succeeded. This left the Varghulf isolated.

    3. I suckered his Varghulf into charging my wardancers, who I figured had a 60-70% chance to hold using the ward dance. They did manage to hold, which allowed me to mob the Varghulf the next turn with Wild Riders in the rear, some dryads and the amber alter in the flank. His Varghulf actually held out really well, making 8 out of his first 9 regeneration saves and killing a couple of models in return, but I was still able to win the combats and eventually overpowered him a couple of rounds of combat later.

    4. By the time he was threatening me on the left, I had moved my vulnerable units toward the center leaving a couple of dryad units to hold up his guys. Shooting weakened his Black Knights, and two units of dryads did a good job of holding up his other Varghulf (and then the remaining Black Knights) and eventually eliminated both units. This was lucky on my part -- I had merely planned to have them break my Dryads and chase them off the table, thus limiting the damage they could do for the rest of the game.

    5. He did use raise dead effectively to disrupt my ability to gang charge his ghoul blocks. I made the mistake of charging into one of those blocks with insufficient forces and got bogged down there. He could raise ghouls faster than I could kill them, but his ghouls weren't doing much damage back either. Ultimately, I had to throw a unit of dryads into the front of his Lord's unit just to turn the helm of command off for a turn, allowing me to throw some more units into the other ghoul combat and destroy the unit. Of course, I lost the sacrificial dryad unit, but their flee move also pulled the general's unit out of formation, which allowed me to hit it from all sides the next turn. He could still raise so many ghouls that I couldn't quash that unit entirely, but it was mostly gone when the game ended.


    So, some tactics that were key to my success:

    1. Correct threat identification (units): You have to know which of his units can actually threaten you. In this case, the Black Knights and Varghulfs were the biggest problem as they were faster than many of my units. Thus I concentrated on destroying them as quickly as possible and just ignored his infantry blocks until later in the game. His ghouls were too slow to catch me unless he resolves a Vanhels, so I didn't worry about them.

    2. Correct threat identification (spells): I mostly ignored his invocation spam. More ghouls don't bother me because I will either A. not be fighting them or B. be fighting them with such overwhelming force that I'll be winning combats by a huge margin and crumbling double digit ghouls each combat phase. Instead, I concentrated my limited magical defense on stopping his Vanhels, Gaze of Nagash, Wind of Undeath, and occasionally Raise dead. Scrolling Wind was key, and I saved dice for Vanhels until I killed his Necromancer. I had to let Gaze go off a few times and just deal with the consequences. One gaze went very poorly for me, completely annihilating my warhawks, the other went well completely failing to wound a dryad unit.

    3. Forking: The best forking unit is Wild Riders, although Alters are also great at this. In case you aren't familiar, forking is a term from chess which refers to positioning a piece in such a way as to threaten two enemy pieces at once. So basically, no matter what they do they are going to lose one of those two pieces. You really want to position your units in such a way that they can threaten several charges at once. Ideally you'll fork your enemy from multiple directions, so that you can get off flank and rear charges against somebody. The more threats you present the more likely your opponent will make mistakes and leave a unit vulnerable. You then pounce on that unit and destroy it.

    4. Don't get in protracted combats. Invocation becomes a problem when you get stuck in a combat over multiple turns. He will wear you down. Instead, only get stuck in when you can destroy targets quickly by bringing overwhelming force to bear. The same thing goes for missile fire -- concentrate it as much as possible. Of course, bringing overwhelming force to bear in melee is difficult unless you can threaten multiple enemy units from multiple angles -- so you really have to fork, or else your opponent will just shift his defenses around to respond to your threats.

    5. Win the movement battle. This means shutting down Vanhels and bringing fliers to the table. My Eagle was the single most important model of the game because it allowed me to march block 600+ points of his army for several turns and slow down his entire flank... for 50 points.

    6. Time is a resource. The more time you can force his units to sit around doing nothing useful, the better off you are.


    _________________________________________________

    I also learned a few lessons about composition vs. VC from this battle. For one, Glade Guard are underwhelming vs. VC. They can't kill infantry fast enough to be worthwhile. That said, they are good at shooting down small units of zombies and wolves and it's important to have SOME ranged threat against his fast units. I'd probably go down to two units, or three at the absolute most. Waywatchers would be a nice choice.

    Dryads are amazing vs VC. They cut ghouls, skeletons, and zombies up in CC and generate a lot of combat res through kills. They are also INCREDIBLE against the Varghulf. They have a small chance of wounding, but more importantly the Varghulf will only be wounding them on 3+ and they still get the 5+ ward save. You'll lose some dryads but they'll hold up better than just about anything else at a cheap point cost.

    Wardancers are also amazing. They can hold their own vs. charging black knights and varghulfs with their ward dance and absolutely butcher ghouls/skeletons/zombies etc. They can even put up a credible offense against Black Knights in the second round of combat with their KB dance.

    Wild Riders aren't as great in combat (although they shine after the first round), but they do break ranks and are much faster than Dryads and Wardancers. You need them to win the movement war.

    Playing with Eternal Guard (especially two blocks) is a bit different. They are still faster than VC infantry but they aren't maneuverable. The plus side, however, is that they at least have good SCR which can help you crumble more.

  11. #10
    Senior Member Gnomish.Id's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Space
    Age
    30
    Posts
    505
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputation
    43 (x2)

    Seals I'd give you props but it seems I already did recently.

+ Reply to Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts