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  1. #1
    Member Willance's Avatar
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    Wood Elves Suck?

    I've been hearing a lot on the other forums that the Wood Elves are the worst army out there now. As an owner but not a player of the Wood Elves Army book I'm incline to disagree. Sure at a 2k game the options are a little slim but if you play a small game say 1k or a larger game like 3k game the lists that could be created are good enough in my opinion that i don't think my Tomb Kings or High Elves could beat them at the same levels.

    For example at 3k you could get 4 tree men in there. For your mandatory core choices you could have 2 squads of Glade Riders and Scouts. Great for disrupting their war machines that would be a threat to the Tree men and Scouts to stop marching by following their Infantry.

    These seem like some good tactics that are still useful in 8th Edition. My question is am i wrong about these tactics and or are Wood Elves really having as much of a hard time as every one says?

    Army's used: Space Wolves, Tomb Kings, High Elves, Tyranids, Tau and Eldar.

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  3. #2
    Junior Member pastaboy's Avatar
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    crazy enough i came across the same thing recently.

    my guess is because there are alot of attacks that have flamning.

    other then that, i have absolutly no idea.

  4. #3
    Junior Member 8people's Avatar
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    It's more because the units that were good/great/okay in 7th edition took a bit of a nosedive whilst the ones that were less than satisfactory were given a massive boost meaning that to keep up with 8th edition most people would have to purchase an entirely new army to remain competative.

    Also the typical tactics need to be revised quite heavily. Marchblocking for instance is easily circumvented whilst the smaller elite units nature of the army can't stand up to swathes of horded infantry and cavalry that is now the standard.

    Some armies got a boost by 8th, others took a hit which is an inevitability really.
    Fantasy: Wood Elves, Dark Elves, Beastmen and Tomb Kings.
    40k: Tyranids
    LotR: Misty Mountains and Rohan

  5. #4
    (Un)Official LO Map Maker Cannibal God's Avatar
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    I've heard this line of thought. Yet, I've also heard from others that WE's improved heaps with 8th ed.

    I think it's to do with the larger 30+ infantry squads that you're seeing a lot more, the elves can't as effectively wield that many numbers. Granted, they have counters, but it doesn't lie with their shooting either against that kind of threat, you just can't put in enough shots (and numbers can be a little difficult for ranked flanking units). Treemen are still cannon bait, so you get them into combat: But then lo and behold you're against a massed unit with more bodies than sense and they're stubborn because of their ranks. It's a tarpit out there. And of course, I've never been impressed with WE magic, so that doesn't really help.

    On the other hand: Treekin and Treemen can now go stomping like their at a skinhead gig, and you're firing in two ranks, and you've got volleys to help you out a bit on top of that.

    In the new rules, I just think you have to play a little more defensively, focussing on firing to strip off a few ranks, shoot/charge flanking units and use a few 20+ units of glade guard to see off what's left.

    My two, inexperienced, cents.
    If someone helps you, rep them.
    In a votewar you don't vote on a single match, you vote on the entire round. Got that?

  6. #5
    quik-quik, kill-kill! The bearded one's Avatar
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    Wood elves have a problem with steadfast in general.

    I believe eternal guard are not really awe inspiring?
    Treekin are great and got better with 8th, but still they usually have only 1 extra rank so most infantry will stay steadfast for a while.

    Wardancers can chop all they want, the enemy will strike back and a T3 6+ save unit won't hold up to pretty much anything. Even if they win 100 to 1, if there is a rank of 5 models standing the enemy is, once again, steadfast
    Dryads have the same problem although they are a bit tougher
    Cavalry has been nerfed because of, you guessed it, steadfast. Even if you manage to get your 10 wildriders in a flank, if you lose 1 wildrider and don't get the enemy below 10, steadfast. Also you need a lot of cav to disrupt ranks
    Gladeguard might be fine shooters but they are not reliable as a combat unit, wether there are 20 or 40 of them.

    This is the reason why wood elves are considered to be one of the weakest armies. Of course this won't appear to be like that to the players who play the army. I saw another discussion on warseer about tomb kings and tomb king players argued that they were still competitive for X number of reasons and it just required some tactics. Though if the enemy uses a no-brainer army and you need to use effective tactics merely to balance it out.. there's something wrong, right?

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    Junior Member 8people's Avatar
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    In my games my archers were pretty much always shooting in two ranks anyway, hills anybody?

    Eternal Guard have an edge except for their costs and armywide armour (a bit of bark and a few leaves should do the trick! What's the mass of shiny things coming towards us?)

    Magic got a boost, lore of Athel Loren is a bit nerfed though with the terrain changes.

    Stomp is nice, increased chance of getting grabbed by the short and flammables isn't.

    Dryads, Wardancers and all things disorganised and wonderful go "hang on chaps, I feel a lot more vulnerable not being in a nice square like these blokes we just sliced up good and proper, and they have a flag!" which, whilst always an issue, the other bloke seems to get a lot more comfort in this now safe and secure in the fact their own comrades are pinning them against the enemy so nuts they can't stand in a straight line unless it's mauling at a shield wall.

    In summation, codex creep of newer books having that edge of oomph we could work around before now have shiny shiny ruleset that goes "Fly my pretties! Your cheap infantry can now REALLY move mountains... or y'know, spirit filled forests, have you seen this banner that gives you flames by the way?"

    And Transformation of Kadon... just feels so wrong to turn into a FIRE dragon in the middle of a woods. I don't think my treeman knew where to look!
    Fantasy: Wood Elves, Dark Elves, Beastmen and Tomb Kings.
    40k: Tyranids
    LotR: Misty Mountains and Rohan

  8. #7
    Senior Member AJ200's Avatar
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    Treekin. Even against a flame attack a Treekin still has effectively 2 wounds. Cos 1 wound doubles = 2 wounds, so it isnt dead yet. Then the 2 wound doubles = 4 wounds and wounds dont carry over. So fire isnt THAT bad.

    Its the Treemen that fire hurts.
    - Wood Elves + Orcs & Goblins since 2009 -

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    Senior Member TamCoan's Avatar
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    There's quite a few things going against wood-elves this edition.
    1) LoS: With the line of sight changes, wood elves are easier to pick off at a distance. Both with shooting and spells.
    2) War machines: Couple war machines with the new LoS and you have shooting that doesn't follow standard shooting rules. I've lost count of the number of times I've seen wood elves simply wiped off the board from war machine shooting.
    3) CC: Lets face it, wood elves have a pretty bad save. The thing that worked for WE close combat was that they could kill enough to not get slaughtered in return. This is no longer the case with the ability to always have models in base-to-base to attack back. Given that WEs are usually more expensive/model than what they are attacking usually leads to a lost combat.
    4) Combat-res: Wood elves really suffer badly from combat res. Very few WE units can even generate viable combat res bonuses. We have only a few units that can count ranks and/or take a banner.
    5) Magic: Lets face it, unless you have a level-4 mage lord, WE magic is abysmal.
    6) Point cost: Wood elves are expensive. Expensive, naked troops just don't do well in a wide open field.
    7) Fire is a greater threat now: Ties back to #1. Way easier to hit a unit of treekin/treeman with a fireball.
    8 ) Forests that chew through the wood elves?!? I still don't understand this one. A WOOD elf can't go into the forest for fear of the forest chewing it up...

    More often than not all eight above points are in play in any given game. Wood elves were designed to be a hit-and-run skirmish army. When cover actually served a purpose they could fulfill that roll. Unfortunately there's just too much working against the woodies. In most games I find that there's just too much the wood elves can't counter. Treekin and the treeman are still solid units, you just never have enough of them on the field.

  10. #9
    Senior Member AJ200's Avatar
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    We can counter anything the enemy throw at us.

    OK you just listed 8 negatives but you didnt mention 'any' positives... We have lots of these too man, and enough to win vs any army.

    Warmachines are a pain in the ass, so.. find a way to kill them, we have teleporting characters, solo wild rider characters work well too. If the enemy go's first, you can charge warmachines in your first turn. If we go first, we can charge in our 2nd turn, its certainly managable.

    Use troups to pressure your enemy and force warmachines to hit the troops YOU want. Treemen for example, put them in the way of warmachines, these will absorb and negate enemy fire power better than if they targeted your gladeguard etc. Then heal your treeman.

    Shoot glade guard at warmachines, for most you only need to hit and then roll two 6's to wound and kill.. Crew dead. Actually warmachines got weaker as well, they are much easier to kill because crew dont hide, they just share toughnesses now.
    - Wood Elves + Orcs & Goblins since 2009 -

  11. #10
    Senior Member TamCoan's Avatar
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    Yeah, I've done all that, I've been playing this game for about 10 years. In a 2200 point list I generally have a minimum of 4 warmachine hunters. However I generally see an average of 4-6 warmachines across the board. Usually the warmachines come out ahead with 2 remaining on the board when all is said and done. Plus there's usually 2 units of very cheap counter-chargers to make sure my anti-WM units can't get too many. Most competent warmachine line players know how to cover their machines very well. Anyone who leaves his warmachines unprotected deserves to lose them.

    Troops pressuring the machines to shoot them is usually what they want to do anyway. glade guard don't do so well vs. stone thrower, organ guns, etc...

    I usually take a minimum of 40 glade-guard. I take 40 shots at a warmachine. Statistically I should be able to kill the crew with an average of 18-20 shots. However it never seems to work out that well on the table. Plus while I'm peppering the machines with shots, the rest of his army is closing fast. I find that warmachines are actually harder to kill from range now. The increased T value really messes with T3 shots. Throw in some cover for the machines and it gets harder, even for our BS.

    I play vs. some really good opponents. We always strive to play the best tactical game possible. Through playtesting the new edition pretty much everyone has come to the consensus that the WEs are the easiest to take out. Of our gaming group I'm the only remaining WE player, everyone else has moved to armies that don't have so many flaws. As a result I've gotten really good at playing the denial game in the now open board. However we'e found that there's just too much for the WEs to stop/counter the entire game.

    Again, it all comes down to the fact that WEs were designed to be a skirmish/hit-and-run army, and have a point premium on them for this reason. It's near impossible to play that way with the new LoS rules. I don't see enough remaining "WE positives" that allow them to overcome the negatives of this edition. No single positive they have is unique to WEs.

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