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I would like to ask those of you that have a lot of experience playing Wood Elf before 8th ed and since 8th ed, have the changes brought on by 8th edition caused a fundamental change with the Wood Elf army to the point that it doesn't feel like playing Wood Elves from a storyline and fluff point of view?
With the changes caused by 8th ed, players of each of the armies have made some changes to their play style. But, by what I have read, it seems that even after adapting, playing Orcs & Goblins still feels like Orcs & Goblins, playing the Dwarf army still feels like the Dwarf army and playing each of the other armies still feels like their respective armies. So, does playing the Wood Elf army still feel like the Wood Elf army?
(edited to make paragraphs. They seemed to have disappeared).
Last edited by Sidewinder; July 3rd, 2011 at 09:29.
Long and short of it, no.
You dont have the flexible movement you once did with skirmishers which made up often 75%+ of your force, so you have to resort to using standard tactics used by other armies and block units. This hasent been problem too much for people who also play other armies but i know people who played exclusively WE and found it very dificult to change. Then because Skirmish units when in block (although still are -1 to hit at range) are spaced out and have a larger frontage (and general area coverage all together) meaning that large blocks of skirmihers in a terrain or unit filled board can be difficult to manouver.
Next you must spend at least 25% of your points on core, not a huge ask but when your used to taking 2 units of 10 glade guard just to fill the 2 core options you end up bulking out on these units which makes you question which command you should take if any. That is a problem for our main fighty staple unit the Dryads, as they only have unit champions, so the guys you want to take in hordes to win combats suffer from not having the basic unit bonuses.
Everything is too expensive to take as horde units, which is what 8th ed is pinned on as well as magic.
Final point, Our caster are pretty expensive and recieve no real bonus to validate the cost, and then unless you take a lord level mage you are stuck using the Lore of Athel Loren which lacks alo of the punch that lore of life gives you. Alot of armies used to take a Lvl4 general so not a massive change there.
Hope this helps.
I stopped playing them for a short time right after 7th came out, and that's when I felt that WoodElves really ceased to feel the way I wanted. Losing the ability to have Fast Cav count for flanking purposes, and Skirmishers getting hit the way they did, really tore the heart out of the typical "light infantry" army that I ran. I rebuilt, and came back with a pretty decent fast cavalry list, but that was eventually overshadowed by a return to my High Elves and Warriors.
Since then, I've tried a few games with them in 8th, and there is a gentleman at my LGS who has a record to make most people cry and happens to be a nice enough guy to give great advice.
He and I have put our heads together and come up with these basic facts about the new Wood Elves:
1. If it used to be good, ditch it on eBay
Dryads are skirmishers, and Skirmish is dead in Fantasy. They might eventually make some units that can actually work with this rule, but the current Skirmish rules for Fantasy just mean that you deploy in a square with .5" between each model, still only have LoS to the front only, you just get a few minor mobility rules. This hurts Wardancers as well. The only Skirmishing units that you want are the scouting regiments of Glade Guard.
2. On Cavalry
Ditch most of it. He's run a list with a few large regiments of Glade Riders (10+) for his core, but Wild Riders have never been worth it, even since the book was written. The large units of Glade Riders are more for VP denial than anything, they can run rings around the enemy and hopefully lure them out of position, while providing ablative wounds for any short-range magic you might have.
Love the trees. Hate the Dryads, but love the trees. The things you can do with 18 Treekin in a regiment is simply disgusting. I don't know how familiar you are with 8th edition, but you now attack in 2 ranks at all times, and if you're "horded" you can attack with 3. Monstrous Infantry (Dryads) Horde at 6-wide rather than the usual 10, and "Monstrous Support" means that models in the second rank attack with their full number of attacks, while models in the front get their full number plus an auto-hit Stomp attack. Pile all of this together and it means that he's pushing forward 48 attacks, 6 of which don't roll to hit.
Dryads are worthless now thanks to Skirmishing, but Treemen are awesome. He routinely runs 2 of them, 3 in tournaments. Without any other good rare choices, and without any reason to focus on Lords, he usually runs an Ancient and then 1-2 from the Rare slots. Treemen are great- field them naked or give them an Annoyance of Nettlings so that they're only hit on 6's in challenges, and go to town. They get "Thunderstomp", which is exactly like the Treekin Stomp, but it deals D6 Autohits.
4. Glade Guard are actually worth it now!
Without anything else worthwhile in the Troops section other than Glade Riders, Glade Guard are now something to be considered. Run in regiments of 12-14 they're perfect. All bowmen get to fire in 2 ranks now, so they're firing at full effect all the time, thanks to their ability to move-and-fire. They also unlock Scouts, who are actually pretty good. Set them up near the enemy and pile shots at characters too stupid to stand in units, or blaze away at small enemy regiments. 10-15 is the usual formation for the scouts.
Nothing to write home about. Lore of Life can be a good alternative to Treesinging on your Lords, but other wizards should only be around to carry dispel scrolls, and although Waywatcher Kindred HoDA Nobles can be a good time, they're too expensive for the job. Usually our armies are simply 1 Lv4 Singer, a TM Ancient, and a BSB Noble. That's it. Save points for the rest of the army.
As for how it feels to play- still Wood Elves. Actually, it feels more like the fiction from the books than how we used to play them. Now you have a mixture of fragile elves and big scary trees on the field, and the fact that you should always be moving your bowmen, it really does give the whole impression of "leaves in the wind" that the book keeps referencing. Oddly, with the focus more on Treemen and Treekin, the list feels a lot "heavier" than it used to. Rather than constantly running like hell to avoid being slaughtered, you now have some beefy regiments that are actually terrifying for you enemy to face down, and you get to take them on the offensive.
I hope this helps you out somewhat. I think that WoodElves have really changed over the last few editions, and remember that you're due to get an update by this time next year- so you might want to hold off on sinking tons of cash into drastically altering your army until you see what's in the next book. If it's anything like the typical GW pattern, the worst units are suddenly going to be the best, since nobody owns them and it'll sell models.
I can see why people think that Wood Elves dont quite feel like Wood Elves anymore with the skirmish nerf.
That with the emphasis on horde units and the Wood Elves' lack of make it an even tougher army to play then during any previous editions.
Might as well paint your woodsies white and blue and call them "magically and combat challenged High Elves".
But even with these changes in the new edition i enjoy playing my Wood Elves. The army composition i field is not much different from previous editions with a balanced mixture of elves and trees and it still works nice. Here's my view on the situation:
1. Although skirmishers have to line up and thus have a 90 degree LoS, they still have unlimited free reforms. A frontage of 5 models is only required to gain a rank bonus, but nowhere in the rules did they mention that a frontage of 5 is mandatory. So snaking past terrain and enemy units is still a viable tactic to get into position.
The March and Shoot addition to the rules help your Waywatchers greatly to get into position to fire on lone characters/warmachines.
The main nerf here is the loss of 360 view.
2. Glade riders are still great at luring frenzied units. Not much experience with Wild Riders though. Warhawk Riders have always been to expensive for their use, and with the new counter-attack rule their hit-and-run has become suicidal and obsolete. Great Eagles are still good for warmachine hunting.
3. @ CaptainSarathai: You might want to edit " Monstrous Infantry (Dryads) Horde at 6-wide rather than the usual 10" since Dryads are normal infantry.
In my opinion Dryads arent useless cause of skirmish, but less worth because the enemy can always strike back. They are however as always good flankers.
Treekin are great, but very expensive (in any way) and indeed make your army feel very heavy. Pointswise for each Treekin you can field 5 Glade Guard archers.
4. Glade Guards are great indeed. In my opinion more Glade Guards work as well as more Treekin. With the new rules wich allow enemies to always strike back it's a good thing to thin out the ranks and lessen the counter attacks so it's safer for dryads and wardancers to move in and finish the job.
And as an added bonus: enemy units are somehow magically drawn towards your archers, leaving the field open for your CC units to swarm around the enemy and either move in to a flanking position, or just ignore the bigger units and take out the smaller ones.
5. If you've played 7th edition, you're used to the fact that 90% of the time you wont be able to disrupt enemy ranks, so no change there.
6. The Lore of Life is a great addition. With the right combination, even your archers with Toughness 7 are able to hold their ground till reinforcements arrive
On the downside:
1. March Blocking is no longer a viable tactic since it only requires a Ld test to make it happen.
2. Wood Elves still can't disrupt ranks (although i'm used to it, it would be great if we could).
3. With the new terrain rules, even the Wood Elves need to fear the woods.
4. Against Wood Elves, you can consider every rank-and-file unit you have to be Steadvast
5. Skirmishers being stubborn in forests is great and all, but the number 1 rule against Wood Elves has always been not to encounter them in forests. so its quite useless.
I do agree on the fact that Wood Elves are in dire need of a new Army Book. It took ages to get the AB, and the one before that was summarised in 5 pages of the 2002Warhammer Chronicles. Not to mention the time between the chronicles version and the even older AB (4th edition i think?).
But the Wood Elves are still playeable as very mobile/combat avoiding/shooty/ganbanging Wood Elves they always were. It's not neccessary to adapt your army list to what seems to be GW's new focus with horde blocks, as they are more easily outmaneuvered. My 2 most regular opponents (Vampire Counts and Orks 'n Goblins) stopped fielding horde blocks just because of that.
ive tried to hold onto what the book used to be, but its not the same. Winning games though mass movement and delicately picking them apart and charging what is left does not win us games anymore like it used to.
Sadly I have moved on.
I have Embraced the new style of wood Elves, and for all you people crying about the Wood Elves, you better just garbage the book now. Seriously
Believe in your Trees and your Bows, and Stay close to your SpellWeaver, the next few years till we get a new book will be Hard, but as long as your models are painted, and your Trees are Angry, we will make it through.
Good Luck everyone
How would you all fix our army? Or maybe a better question, What do you feel GW will do to our army, realistically, when we finally get a new book?
Points drop across the board on all but maybe the Treemen and Treekin.
Most Skirimish units will loose skirmish for a new army wide rule is my guess. Somthing like they dont need to roll dice to make a quick manouver as long as they have a musician etc.
Dependin on how GW want to play it, Glade guard will get resculpted so they can have other weapon options, mainly shield and spear, or they will use the opertunity to introduce a new core unit. its not good enough in 8th edd to rely on dryads as your core fighting block, just like you cant expect glade guard to fulfill that role either. You could even see eternal guard dropped into core, with weapon option for shield and a new plastic resculpt.
Druids would be a nice new unit, (if not a bit warcraft) with feral like abilieis you wouldnt associate with most elves like better than average strength, attacks, toughness etc, or as a magical unit that buffs other units etc.
Magic will be overhauled with tree singing or a regen as the lore atribute. Can also see WE getting Lore of life, beasts, shadow, on top of Loren.
Magic items will get nerffed like every other new book leaving just a few lord lvl items, making Spites more important.
Slight chance of loosing kindreds from the book.
As for a big monster unit, i can imagen only a bigger treeman, possibly like the goblin spider it will have people able to ride in its branches firing bows or magic from it.
Glade guard bows special rule with any luck apply to the entire army. Just look at repeat crossbows for DE or Dwarf hanguns, they dont change just because someone else uses them. Would certainly be nice to run up with some glade riders with S4 bows so you have a chance of doing some real damage.
Theres some of my thoughts anyway.
Thinking about it, one thing i would like to see is a bigger aspect of things in the woods rather than just trees and elves. Id be happy with packs of wolves, dire bears, fairy/spite swarms etc. Theres more than just trees in Athel Loren, GW need to expoit it more. Yeh theres war hawks but theres nothing too special about it.
Woodevles currently have a totaly different way of fighting compared to the other 2 elf armies. For them to work they will unfortunatly have to drift to block units of infantry due to the changes in 8th edd, but hopefully it means we're able to play like a none elf army with the units available to us. I would dread for Woodelves to just become Hippi High Elves.