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Next Sunday, the local game store will begin running a campaign using the Lustria setting, and I--having just gotten into Warhammer Fantasy and the Wood Elves--am going to give it a shot.
(We actually 'began' yesterday, but enough people couldn't show up that we decided to call it a test run and start over in a week--it did give me a chance to play my first game, though).
Anyway, the difficulty I am having resides in the fact that the army size we'll be using is a mere 500 points. That's good in a way, because I don't have a huge number of models (at most I could field a decent 1500 points) but bad in a way because it's really much harder to write a list at that small a level--especially when characters can get quite expensive quite quickly, and that brings me to the point of this post:
In a small force of Wood Elves, is it worth it to send in a well equipped and upgraded character, or is it generally going to be better to focus on bringing more models?
What character builds would you all suggest for this points-level?
Things that strike me as being particularly good:
Starfire Arrows--With the knowledge that an Orcs/Goblins player, a Tomb Kings player, a Skaven player, and two lizardmen players are going to be participating, it seems that something with the potential to provoke this many Panic tests (against generally low leadership models) is pretty golden.
Hail of Doom Arrow--Pretty obvious. One thing to note about this wargear is that there don't seem to be any 20 point pieces of wargear that are terribly worth bringing--meaning that this is probably the only thing a character will be taking.
Staff of Calaingor--Multiple Treesingings on a table that's about half woods templates? Sign me up.
Pageant of Shrikes--The ability to eliminate standard bearers, mages, and Ratling guns with virtually unprecedented ease makes this a very appealing item. The Lamentation of Despairs is also tempting, especially since a lot of the armies are going to generally be low leadership, but it seems to suffer a lot from the 'eggs in one basket' syndrome.
Anyway, some Character builds I've considered:
Noble, Eternal Kindred, Hail of Doom Arrows = 110 points
Noble, Starfire Arrows, Pageant of Shrikes = 125 points
Spellsinger, Lv. 2 Wizard, Staff of Calaingor, Pageant of Shrikes = 175
Branchwraith, Lv. 1 Wizard, Cluster of Radiants, Pageant of Shrikes = 165
(maybe an Annoyance of Netlings instead of a Pageant of Shrikes since the Branchwraith really wants to be in Cc more than she wants to sit around shooting)
Anyway, any advice would be appreciated.
Watch out for Lustria encounters! I was forgetful and left my spellsinger in the trees where she was ripe pickin's for the encounter phase. She was dead by the end of turn 2.
I like the pageant of shrikes. I used the hunter's talon in a game, and it has the same targeting abilities. The problem is that I used it once, and then my opponent quickly ducked his shamans out of their units and behind the lines. Now that's okay if you've got waywatchers or scouts back there to do some harrassment. But for me, it meant that my expensive item was worth one wound.
Starfire arrows are good, like you say, against low ld armies. But skaven gets the rank bonus to leadership tests, lizardmen roll three dice, and tomb kings are undead and just don't give a damn about panic. That leaves you with O&G, where it would probably be great.
Can't go wrong with the hail of doom arrow, unless you roll three 1s--like I did one game--or don't hit your target--like I did the second time I used it.
I like the lamentation of despairs. It's a long shot. I had to wait three turns before I had pulled my opponent into using all his dispel dice. But I was using it against Cult of Slaneesh with high leadership, and he passed no problem. Still, I'll take it again. If you can pull it off and the enemy fails that test, the game's momentum could easily and quickly tilt your way.
I loved the annoyance of netlings! I will be taking it whenever I can. On a branchwraith, or how about on a wardancer noble!
At 500 pts, I'd take the hail of doom arrow. Even though I've rolled miserably with it, the damage that 3d6, str 4 hits could do to a small force would be devastating.
welcome to the warhammer world...
hm... I haven't read the new wood elf armybook yet so I don't know of any points and rules about them but generally at that smal games I suggest only in taking one character that's good at taking out other characters at his level. eg a waywatcher character that can do killing blow with his bow maybe (again I haven't read the armybook yet)?
Also try to keep your character under 130pts or 180pts in chase of a wizard. In smal games like 500pts you'll need your troops. 1 character, 2 core and 1 special or 1 rare are pretty good as a template. But ofcause there may be better army setups for each induvidual army.
I'd take a noble a unit of glade guard a dryad unit and some wardancers or waywatchers... that'll make a decent 500pts army (I think... based on what I've seen on the uk GW website and my knowledge on previous edition of wood elves)
But for the character in such smal games I'd take one that can fight in close combat rather than magic. And last... a character doesn't have to use up all his points on magic items to be good, if you've used only 30pts of magic items and he does what he's supposed to do. Then he really doesn't need another item right? So don't think you've made a bad character just because you didn't use up all the points.
10 GG (120)
8 Dryads (96)
8 Dryads (96)
5 Wardancers (90)
1 Noble, Wardancer Kindred (105)
Comes to 507 Points. This gives you a lot of fast, CC ability with some ranged support. Try to single out targets and fall like a hammer with the dryads and wardancers. Combat resolution can kiss you ass with 5 WS6 S5 attacks, 15 WS6 S4 attacks, and up to 32 WS4 S4 attacks.
Here is another layout:
12 GG with Musician (150)
11 GG with Musician (138 )
5 Scouts, Banner of Zenith (110)
1 Noble, Hail of Doom Arrow (110) [Joins 11 GG]
Comes to 508 Points. Many have doubt about a all shooting army for wood elves, but I think this would do stellar with proper strategy. In such a small point game, the Scouts with the BoZ should be able to maximize on what it wants to march block, effectively giving the GG units and the noble to have their sweet way shooting the hell out of anything. Fit that in with the HoDA, a 500 points army would have a hard time surviving. If for some reason you can't focus fire and kill enough, use maneuvarability and the ability to move through woods to your advantage. Against shooty armies, 'try' to distract with the scouts, and use cover on your way their, lay down fire at the right time with short range and you will be golden (24 s4 shots hitting on 3+(2+) and 3-18 S4 magical shots.
Heres a cavalry list, fast and hard hitting. Difficult to use but if used right can guarantee victoyr within turn 2.
5 GR (120)
5 GR (120)
5 WR (130)
1 Noble, WR kindred, steed, helm of the hunt (134)
Total 512. Stay out of sight first turn, full march around / through terrain, and attack everything at once, guarenteeing a massive overkill for combat resolution, then reform to prepare for minimum casualties, than strike again. This noble and the wild riders will pretty much murder in combat if they get their safely. Use the glade guard to harry and strike wherever the wild riders have the best opportunity to fight.
8 Dryads (96)
8 Dryads (96)
3 Treekin (195)
1 Branchwraith, Murder of Spites, Annoyance of Netlings
Total 502. Use dryads to tie up units and flank with treeman. Treeman are tough, most 500 point armies don't have big warmachines that can slaughte treekin, but 9 t5 4+ wounds is tough to stop, and even worse when its plucking the limbs off of your rank and file troops. The branch wraith can go with one of the dryad units. Branch wraithes, point for point, are ridiculously power in combat. The way this wraith is geared, it can easily tear apart enemy combat heroes 50 points more expensive. They have 3 s4 attacks, and 1-6 poison attacks, and can only be hit on 6s!
These are just my ideas and in no way the bests. They should all be fun and unique and offer varying ways to win and play the game. The different lists also take into play that you may not have all of the necessary models to make a list, so this gives you many options.
Stay away from spellcasters at low point games because all armies start out with at least 2 Dispel Dice.
However, shooting is really good at low point games because you have the very real possibility of destroying entire units with archers. Read the warband batreps in white dwarf, the army with more shooting almost always won the battle at that point level.
what about a magic person as a hq? or would that be a crappy tactic. although the tree movement and other things could help emormously in some battles
Ok fellows we have a difficult task, so we have to be more deadly than everyday.
Make mistakes and confuse the enemy - The Doctor
Tactics are nice but it is violence that wins the day.
In lustria, I think a good treesinger would pwn most armies. Lets multiple enemy squads with D6 S5 attacks! If its mostly forest, I don't really know how good shooting would be.... Can't you only see like 2" into forests? Anyways, good luck.
40K armies: Tyranids (2001), Space Wolves (2008), Sisters of Battle (2011)
Current Rep: 1337
Thanks for the comments; they seem like basically what I was expecting to hear.
The mage I considered is basically good for tossing out multiple treesingings which are good especially because of the Encounters system (which I'm pretty familiar with at this point). A forest can be moved towards an enemy and then used to catch the enemy in an encounter, plus, with all the forests around, as it was stated, you can theoretically do a lot of damage--you do need the staff, though, or you only get one treesinging a round, which isn't really enough.
So, I probably will keep the treesinging mage in my list and probably stick with the Hail of Doom Arrow/Eternal Kindred noble for my second General choice. At some point, I'll probably try out a wardancer kindred noble as well (105 points is pretty budget for this guy's close combat ability) but aside from just using a basic Wardancer model, I don't have anything that would make a good Wardancer noble, so I'll probably wait on that.
Someone pointed out that, actually, a lot of those armies are either immune to panic or less likely to flee than they seem on the surface, so the starfire arrows are probably too pricy for their usefulness.
edit: a few questions regarding Branchwraiths:
How best to outfit them?
Gearing them up for close combat seems an obvious route, yet one wonders if it's worth putting some points into their magical abilities--if only as a mechanism to help shut down enemy casters.
The hero hunting Branchwraith is pretty straight-forward:
Branchwraith, Annoyance of Netlings, Murder of Spites.
Swapping the Murder for a Pageant would be more in line with how I like to see things done, but either way it's a pretty focused and effective route to killing specific models.
However, spending 50 points and swapping one of those spites for a Cluster of Radiants offers nearly unbeatable protection during the magic phase--not many armies are going to be able to force anything useful through 4 dispell dice at 500 points.
Which seems more important? Being able to murder enemy champions or controlling the magic phase? Being awesome in challenges, or getting those extra attacks for killing little guys? Is the pageant even worth considering on a melee-oriented hero like this? Is there a balance somewhere that's better?
No matter how you go, the Branchwraith stays within 165 points, which seems reasonable, even if towards the high end of what a character should be, so I may try a few varients in side games if I get the chance.
Last edited by Bean; August 9th, 2005 at 09:09.
I played in a 500pt tournament once with my VC army. I brought 1 Necromancer Lv2, 1 Banshee, 2 units of 10 skeletons with std and champion, and a unit of 5-8 ghouls. I figured with a Necromancer I could raise a possible 12d6 skeletons throughout the game(avg of 42) and my only problem would be having enough models for them all. It turned out that in 4 games I got off my skeleton raising spell once. 2 dispel dice enough for most armies to negate my magic phase.
As you go higher point games the ratio of your power dice to their dispel dice gets higher and higher, while numbers of fire lanes and number of small units gets lower and lower proportionately. At low point games your archers are reliable and units are small. As points go higher units of infantry get huge and units of archers maintain the same size. This means archers(at high point games) are no longer used to destroy units and are instead used to whittle units down to managable size for your infantry to deal with.
Whatever you decide to do take Hail of Doom Arrows, that amount of arrows will ruin a units day at 500 pts.
I agree with MoC. I'd take the Branchwraith with annoyance and murder (I've used it twice, and it's a terrific combo). At 500 pts magic shouldn't be too much consequence. I suppose you could see two lvl 1 night goblin shamans or skink shamans, but that seems unlikely.
Are you using warbands rules?