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Hey all. This has been a blaring question on my mind for a while, and I thought that I'd finally vent and air it.
Apparently, everyone at my gaming group discounts Wood Elves as a 'cheese' race. This is different than the '3 Wraithlord Eldar' cheese, or the 'Tzeench Flying Circus' cheese. It appears to me, that no matter what I do, my Wood Elf army is invariably cheese. In fact, the only players that don't see this is myself, and the other resident Wood Elf player, who has been playing this army since its inception so long ago when they were just a chronicles addition.
I sat down and talked to one of my regular opponents about why he thought Wood Elves were cheese.
One example he gave was that, no matter what unit I put down onto the table, he has to worry about its fighting capacity. I countered that, this is because Wood Elves are an 'elite' army, and even though each unit is deadly, it can't be hastily thrown away, such like Gnoblars, or Peasant Militia would.
He also noted that back in the day, the other Wood Elf player was so good with the chronicle list Wood Elves that he would basically 'play your army for you'. So now, because an experienced general is incredibly good with an army, I'm blamed for cheese?
He also declares that a unit of Orcs pitched against an equal cost unit of Dryads would lose to Dryads every single time. But I countered that the value of a unit alone cannot make determinations on which army is better. It relies on the combination of units to make an effective list, and that if he wanted to exercise his theory, then we could just from now on only play 144pt armies, that include one unit of Dryads versus one unit of Orcs.
Of course I also mention that Dryads get no static combat res, nor can they negate enemy static res on their own, but that never seems to have any merit.
Remarkably, no one seems to say anything when either myself or the other Wood Elf player loses (horribly) to the resident Bretonnian player (neither of us has beat him yet).
Anyways, I was just curious as to other Wood Elf player's opinions on this. Do you face similar prejudice in your gaming groups? Is it just me, or is my friend just being a little ***** about not adapting to take on a new opponent (he is used to massed block CC armies that just charge straight ahead, and it's new for him to fight my 'shoot you to death, until I want to fight in CC' strategies)
PS. One of the greatest that I've heard was one kid saying 'I don't think Wood Elves should even be an army, because they should never leave Athel Loren, and I just wouldn't go in there, so they have no one to fight.'
Last edited by MobiusPrime; November 18th, 2005 at 18:05.
this one made me laugh.Originally Posted by MobiusPrime
some people simply declare its cheese when its new or different from everything else.
these are the people who have a fixed view how warhammer is supposed to be played in their head and if you digagree you are WRONG!
you can tell that orc player to actually bother to learn a beatiful thing called tactics, which doesnt just invovle kitting out your units and just charging forwards and hope the dice will favour you.
iÂ´m not a wood elf player but each time i hear this crap i readily stand in the defence of the wood elf player. It just seems some people dont want to learn new things.
what kind of armies do the worst whiners play? and what type usually?
""What's the matter? Don't ya like clowns? Don't we make ya laugh?" - Captain Spaulding.
"That's cheese!" = "I'm afraid!"
What do they say when you mention your massacres at the hands of Brettonian guy?
Is he cheese too?
The reason people call the Wood Elf army cheese, is the bad taste it left in most of their mouths with the last version. With the last version, people were just marchblocked to hell and back, and peppered to death by 5 man archer units, and when they finally got across the table, they'd maybe catch a 60 point archer unit, before getting dual charged by the then super-crazy Dryads and Wardancers.
Now, Wood Elves aren't as cheesy. It's still possible to make a cheesy list, but it's a very well done book and doesn't come anywhere near as close to exploitation as the Skaven book does.. However, many of your opponents will scream cheese no matter how you play it, as all they can remember is the old days. Most of my opponents like how I play my list, because it's fairly tame and shooting light. The more and more marchblocking and shooting you have, the more they will probably call cheese.
Think of it from their point of view, and I'll use probably the one list people consider the cheesiest without exploitation, Bretonnians. Imagine if the Bretonnian list got redone. It doesn't matter how much they toned it down, when you start playing them at first after the new list, you're just going to remember those "Charge you on turn two with ranks Knights who had that stupid ward save and a bagillion attacks". Just give it time.
PS What kind of lists do you two run, because it is possible to make cheesy WE armies.
Well i think the others somed it up really well. The one thing i like about GW games is that thier is always a way to win no matter who you face. For example I play Tau and i faced my friend who plays eldar. He beefed up his army just to beat me. Though due to a thing called TACTICS i came out on top. I even decimated his three wraithlords. So if they are calling your army cheesy you should tell them to learn how to play the game.:ninja:
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Well, I just recently cranked out a 2000 pt. It's posted in the army list sub-section of Wood Elves called Night Elf Asrai list.
Admittedly, my 1000 pt lists were pretty mean, but I was just basing unit selections off of a general strategy: marchblock to missile fire, to panic check.
Most of the 1000s were based around shooters (typically three units of 10 GG), two marchblock units (Scouts, GR or WW) and a unit that can hold its own in combat, if the need arises (Eternal Guard, Dryads) plus one character, usually on an Eagle so he can marchblock as well.
While I altered some lists to include different units as I got them (Eternal Guard replaced Dryads) or my Noble changed equipment, my 1000 pt lists basically stayed the same for about 2 months. This was my overall strategy. My tactics adapted based on the situation I was faced with (enemy fast cavalry? Back off the Scouts until they're neutralized. Enemy hard hitters with super armor? Lure them into a forest where they'll have a hard time getting out.)That's just it. My losses are never recognized. And even the Orc player has beat me on occassion by cranking out so many magic missiles I can't stop them all (8 power dice, to my 2 dispel) (Which brings to mind, if my army is cheese, is 8 power dice in 1000 pts cheese? I wouldn't know, the only 'real' magic I ever played was with my Tomb Kings, and that's a very unique style).Originally Posted by Leviathan_3
The Brettonian guy is actually one of my favorites to play, one, because I haven't been able to beat him, and two, because he never gloats or huffs. Lots of players will sport an attitude that makes me feel uncomfortable when I flank their big block with my Eternal Guard, while charging with my Noble in the rear, and subsequently dealing out the death, making them pick up their prized unit. They huff, or shake their head, and, me personally, almost want to say 'Sorry, should I take that move back so you can have fun too?' I mean, they did walk into my trap. Any noob could see it.
But the Bret guy...I've made him pick up an entire lance formation, and he didn't even flinch. Likewise, when he's pounding me in the dirt, he never get's in my face and rubs it in. He's a good sport, whether he's winning or losing.I do. I can see how it can be frustrating to be marchblocked on turn 1, and never have any hopes to get your M4 units into charge range. But I figure, okay, after first game, ha, I gotcha. Now second game, don't let that happen again. Figure out a counter to it, and implement. Is that too much to ask?Originally Posted by OmnipotentKiwiTypically, the people who whine play combat oriented lists, eg. Vamps, Orcs, Lizards, and Skaven. Most focus around their characters to do the killing, have very little shooting (if any at all), and generally base their strategy around their army list, and not the other way around.Originally Posted by danceman
right-o, 3 of the more powerful armies in WHFB, skaven, lizzies and VC.
a general word to all of them, wake up from the world of Herohammer and realise a character doesnt win games anymore.
a lizardmen player with little or no shooting?
What the hell is he thinking? does he expect saurus warriors to just eat through everything?
skinks and salamanders are almost essential for the slowmoving saurus units.
i´m not suprised he is loosing against you.
VC... this guy can use cheap screens, raise new units etc etc.
Skaven... cant say much, havent faced them.
Again to all of them, THIS IS NOT HEROHAMMER!
feel free to show them this and once again i´m not a WE player so them claiming im biased wont work
""What's the matter? Don't ya like clowns? Don't we make ya laugh?" - Captain Spaulding.
I play primarily Vampire Counts. I KNOW THE GAME IS NOT HEROHAMMER!!!!
That over and done with. I have played against the new WE and I am not overly impressed. I pretty much march blocked his Tree Kin and Eternal Guard instead of him doing that to my Grave Guard and Black Knights. Since the Wood Elves have no War Machines like the Vamps, I redirected my flyers to kill off their skirmishers. (Its amazing how quickly Waywatchers die *cackles madly*)
Thus I found the Wood Elves to be a good army. I did lose both of my skelly units, and I also lost my general in the last turn (that'll teach me to underestimate an Alter Highborn ) I found them challenging but DFINATELY NOT cheesy.
When life gives you lemons, shut up and eat your damn lemons.
There doesn't appear to be much change over the last WE list. Or the one before that, or the one before that as it goes. I know they're supposed to be hit-and-run, but I feel sorry for the WE players who think it's all change and having bought another £200 of models get pretty much the same as last time.
I like to stand back and magic missile them to death which causes a few upsets. There isn't much else an opponent can do against WE either when they're a bit of a one-trick pony.
Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world.