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  1. #1
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    Help Vs Tomb Kings

    So far i've beat all other guys at my local store that i've played so far except a tomb king player which i'm 2L/1D(barely) against. I used to have 2 treeman list with only 4 dd and one unit of treekin. His list burned them to a crisp and then came at me with his force. I made a new list and wonder what you guys think of it against his.

    tomb king opponent who has (roughly)
    Lord
    1 tomb king- w/Blade of Eternities (In skeleton unit)
    Hero
    1 Priest w/flying cloak (hierophant)
    1 Priest w/jar (joins random units)
    1 priest w/3d6 str2 power lvl 4 staff(not one use only...)
    Core
    20-25 Skeleton w/res banner
    1 Tomb Swarm(always burrows)
    3 Chariots
    Special
    20-25 Tomb Guard w/free reform banner
    3 Ushabti
    1 Tomb Scorpion(always burrows)
    Rare
    2 Skull catapults

    Per turn he has his king, 2 spells at 1d6 (Smiting or moving) within 6", his 3 priests have 1 spell each at 2d6, and his powerlvl 4 staff, and his powerlvl 3 banner of res.

    Equivalent of 9PD(10pd if he has to res his unit) And the spells always go off of course and he uses most of that PD to cast smiting with his Flammable/Magical catapult or if i'm close to him he'll charge with the moving spell and then smite me before i can even attack back.

    This is the list that i want to use *changed*
    Lord = 295
    SpellWeaver(Level 3) + D Scroll + Wand of Wych Elm
    Hero = 296
    Alter Noble + HODA + Helm of Hunt + GW + Light Armor
    BranchWraith + Level 1 + Cluster of Radiants
    Core = 441
    1x10 Glade Guard
    1x8 Dryads
    1x8 Dryads
    1x5 Glade Riders w/musician
    Special = 647
    1x6 Wardancers w/musician
    1x6 Wild Riders w/mus/standard/warbanner
    1x3 Warhawk Riders
    1x3 Treekin
    Rare = 335
    Treeman
    Great Eagle

    Total = 1996
    54 Models
    10 Units
    6 PD
    6 DD (Re-Roll Failed Attempts)
    1 Bound Treesing
    1 D Scroll

    Any feedback would be welcome

    Last edited by slingbladez; December 27th, 2006 at 05:41.

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  3. #2
    Senior Member IamJasonK's Avatar
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    I'll be back later tonight to give some advice. I need to borrow the TK book from a friend. Until then could you please remove the point cost for your troops otherwise Santa-DavidVClause will come and give you coal.

    Edit #1:
    1. I would suggest against a treeman. For several reasons.
    a. They have large block units.
    b. Catapults, they will decimate you.
    So I suggest that you use the pts. to buy two squads of 5x Waywatchers. This gives you killing power against warmachines or lone wizards. You could also consider Giant Eagles or Warhawk riders. This has good possibilities as your opponent doesn't have a lot of shooting and using what they do have on your eagles would be a waste.

    2. Drop some Dryads. Your opponent has very little flanking and block heavy units. By dropping some dryads you can get some points back. You essentially should only have 2 squads and use them to protect your flanks and rear. So set them South East and South West of your battle line. This will allow you to protect 3 sides. This essentially knocks out the big function of the burrowing units.

    3. The Chariots are the only thing I don't really have a good answer for, I have never had a great answer for this my self. I normally just go crazy on these units with my magic or shooting. However, I don't suggest you use GG for shooting. Possibly you could try using a Wild Riders to charge him before he charges you. You have a Movement advantage so that could help.

    4. By dropping the Wardancers, some Dryads, and Glade Riders you can get your self some decent Eternal Guard squads. This is really the only way to truly deal with his block units.

    5. The last major problem you face is the Lords and Heroes. I am going to suggest a major revamping of this area. Your problem is you are trying to beat him at his game, magic. You will never win. Instead you should beat him as only WE can, with speed and intelligent character design. So for your Lord I suggest you design him to beat up his Lord. To easily do this we need to challenge him. So for you lord I say Ragath's Wildfire blades for the fire ability and the extra attack from being 2 hand weapons, Annoyance of Netlings for the challenge, and Armour of the Fey or the Armathine Brooch depending on if that sword is magical or not. For your heroes you should get a BSB to help you stand Toe to Toe with his undead. Consider even adding Ariel's banner, that will give you feat to fight him off and it will give you magical resitance. I also suggest only 1 Spellsinger with 2 Dispell scrolls. For the last hero I suggest a Waywatcher with the HoDA. This will guarantee a dead warmachine or a Priest if he leaves one in the open.

    6. Tree-kin, I am not suggesting dropping these guys but you need to focus them on the Ushabti and/or the Chariots.

    Overall it may not be the best answer but I think this will give you a good opportunity to deal with anything he throws at you. Also do not stop advancing against this opponent. His strength will be for you to sit back, keep your units tight together. Make sure your blocks are in range of your general and BSB. Kill the warmachines early and always keep an opportunity available to kill his Heirophant if he makes a mistake and leaves him open.

    Edit#2:
    You can always equip a character to kill single characters and take out his banners. Unlike characters they are super heavy armored nor do they have a high T. I think those skeleton warrior with the magic banner would make a good target as would the musician and champion.
    Last edited by IamJasonK; December 27th, 2006 at 04:52.

    Geronimo, look out below. Here comes the brother with the offbeat flow. I just fell from the mother ship.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IamJasonK View Post
    Edit#2:
    You can always equip a character to kill single characters and take out his banners. Unlike characters they are super heavy armored nor do they have a high T. I think those skeleton warrior with the magic banner would make a good target as would the musician and champion.
    Unfortunately i looked in the book as i thought of killing the banner guys too but you can't target standard bearers and musicians :'(

    Also about killing the warmachine with HODA unfortunately they have a lame rule where if the crew is dead but the machine is still alive they can still be ressurected....lame, so i have to take it out in CC.
    Another lame thing is that the kings weapon does 2 auto hits to any model in base contact and since it's a great weapon it is strength 7. A elf character even with annoyance and the armor of fey will probably die on the first round of combat if the army has low amount of dispel dice because he can also use his magic phase to attack with those two auto hits. That's why i went for 6 rerollable dispel dice because his magic phase is so brutal for shooting and close combat. So i'm going to try to throw dryads at his king and attack his flank with as much as i can.

    Thanks for the suggestions i added warhawks,eagle and a meele character and took away 5 wild riders, a spellsinger and some upgrades. I like how my list looks, seems like it might do well against tomb kings and it seems balanced enough to do well against my other opponents. I have everything but eternal guard so i have to leave them out of the list.I'm a tad hesitant to take out my treeman as he helps vs brettonian and other high armor opponents. Least with only one treeman i can hide him in my free forest easier and i'll try to treesurf him or leave him there till i neutralize his catapults and/or wizards with my warhawks and eagles.

    What do you think of my changes?
    Last edited by slingbladez; December 27th, 2006 at 17:55.

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    Senior Member IamJasonK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slingbladez View Post
    Unfortunately i looked in the book as i thought of killing the banner guys too but you can't target standard bearers and musicians :'(
    I disagree with your interpretation of the abilites of the Hunter's Talon. What makes you believe that you can't target Musicians and Standard Bearers?

    Quote Originally Posted by slingbladez View Post
    Also about killing the warmachine with HODA unfortunately they have a lame rule where if the crew is dead but the machine is still alive they can still be ressurected....lame, so i have to take it out in CC.
    Not True! I was calling today to discuss some issues with GW and I brought up this question. With out crewman at the warmachine skeletons can not be ressed. The only way to repopulate the warmachine is to transfer 1 skeleton from the other warmachine then they can res the others.

    Quote Originally Posted by slingbladez View Post
    Another lame thing is that the kings weapon does 2 auto hits to any model in base contact and since it's a great weapon it is strength 7. A elf character even with annoyance and the armor of fey will probably die on the first round of combat if the army has low amount of dispel dice because he can also use his magic phase to attack with those two auto hits. That's why i went for 6 rerollable dispel dice because his magic phase is so brutal for shooting and close combat. So i'm going to try to throw dryads at his king and attack his flank with as much as i can.
    Yes I agree that fighting this guy is a big risk. However, he only gets 4 attacks. Thanks to your ward save he will only average a little under 2 for wounding you. You have 3 advantages, Flamming weapons, Weaponskill, and Initiative. So he hits at S7, its a waste. Normal attacks are S5 so either way you are getting wounded on a +2 roll anyways. Also if he is going to use the auto hit ability just trade the netlings for Murder of Spites. This will give you the extra attacks just incase.

    Also those 4 attacks can only occur during the magic phase. Normally he only gets 2 attacks. So all you have to do is kill him quick and there is no way he can kill you off using this special ability. Hell with good rolling he won't even get an attack.

    Quote Originally Posted by slingbladez View Post
    What do you think of my changes?
    1. Treeman - You mention his effect on Brets. I will agree they are good on high armor. However, TK are not high armor. They are non-breaking block fighters. He will get the magic 5 on you everytime. I just don't see the advantage to the treeman here.

    2. Glade Guard - I don't see the advantage to these here. It will to easy for him to res the kills that you will cause with this. Take the points and put them towards a bigger squad of Wardancers or whatever you main combat unit will be.

    3. Spellweaver and anti-magic strategy - I still disagree with this. You are tying too hard to defeat him at his own game. He is generating 2D6+2d6+2d62+D6+D6 Power Dice IIRC. You aren't going to beat that with your Dispel Dice.

    Overall I definatly believe you are moving in a better direction to beat the TK however they just don't play the same as armies like Brets. TK players aren't playing warhammer they play HeroHammer. Kill the heroes,kill the big things, win the match. Those infantry blocks are there just to bog you down. You need to treat them like rocks and flow around them to your targets.
    Last edited by IamJasonK; December 28th, 2006 at 01:33.

    Geronimo, look out below. Here comes the brother with the offbeat flow. I just fell from the mother ship.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IamJasonK View Post
    I disagree with your interpretation of the abilites of the Hunter's Talon. What makes you believe that you can't target Musicians and Standard Bearers?
    On page 80 if "it is assumed that if standard bearer is killed, another warrior will pick it up"

    Quote Originally Posted by IamJasonK View Post
    Not True! I was calling today to discuss some issues with GW and I brought up this question. With out crewman at the warmachine skeletons can not be ressed. The only way to repopulate the warmachine is to transfer 1 skeleton from the other warmachine then they can res the others.
    that one makes more sense but in the tomb king faq on the GW website it says

    http://us.games-workshop.com/errata/.../tombkings.pdf


    Q.
    If a Screaming Skull Catapult has lost all its crew,
    can they be brought back with the Incantation of
    Summoning, so long as the Catapult itself is still
    standing?
    A.


    Yes, and vice versa.

    Don't know how to proceed with this rule since the two conflict. I hope they just update the FAQ because that rule is so dumb.

    I'll look over my army list some more i just wanted to try to clarify these two things

    Last edited by slingbladez; December 28th, 2006 at 06:16.

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    slingbladez is right on both accounts. The only exception I know of are ogres, where the standard bearer can be targeted, hence the need for look-out gnoblars =)

    Ciao

    Stonehambey

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    While this list may not be the best against tomb kings i think it at least has a fighting chance now, and i tried to keep it balanced so i can also do well against my other opponents beasts,hordes of chaos(mortal),dwarves,bretonians,empire,lizardmen (if i get top spot in ladder i have to keep same list) so i have to keep that in mind.

    Might as well start talking about strategies against tomb kings now.

    i'm thinking that i will use my glade riders/warhawks and glade guard on seperate units and use my hoda on the ushbati/chariots as soon as possible.

    The reason i want to do this is keep his power dice busy trying to ressurect guys. As i will be able to dispell all but 0-2 ressurection spells per turn it should be able to tie up his dice decently enough to maybe only have enough left over for one extra catapult attack.

    i'm going to throw my treeman in my forest and treesing him to be able to strangleroot his skeleton or temple guard unit.

    also if there are any trees near his burrowed units i'm going to try to move them over top so when he comes up unless he gets a good scatter he won't be able to see anything to charge. Also if it doesn't scatter out i can probably use my damage treesing spell on it next turn.

    My warhawks and my eagle will attack each of the catapults to try to kill it/tie it up, and it is likely that a priest will be hiding in one of the catapults. If they are successfull i'll try to hunt priest because if the catapults die the only other place for them to hide are in the two block units which makes them alot easier of a target. So killing catapults has two really important reasons now, flushing out priests and stopping flaming/magical death.

    If the catapults aren't dead by the time the glade riders/wild riders get across the field i'm going to push them hard at the catapults but if they are already dead they can get ready to set up flank/rear charges on the two big blocks.

    The rest of my guys will be used for trying to get rid of the scorpion, swarm, ushbati and chariots first and then setting up some hopefully big combined charges. This will be tricky as i'll have to get within 10" without him using his magic phase to charge me. By then(turn 4-5) i'll hopefully have killed a priest and maybe two if i'm lucky. Or if i get really unlucky killing priests i'll hopefully be doing enough damage to some of his units to tie up enough spells so he can't use his spells to charge me. If i do manage to kill one priests he'll only be getting 1-2 off, if i kill two i should be able to get him down to 0-1. Also he'll be using all the spells he can to do healing so the danger from charging/free attack and shooting during his magic phase is alot less.

    For the combined charges i want dryads to charge the king as fodder and hopefully treeman and/or treekin and whatever else charges it will get enough kills while the dryads get slaughterd by the king.

    Also against the tomb guards i'm going to avoid them as much as possible as they are str4/T4 and have magical attacks...if i have to charge them i'm going to try to throw a combination wardancers,treekin,alter,treeman or wild riders, no gladeriders,dryads or warhawks

    My spellweaver will try to use beasts anger on my Alter to give him 8 str 6 attacks on charge, and any other useful beast spells she gets, and treesing. My branchwraith and my treeman will treesing. With 6 pd and one bound level 3 against his 5 DD i should get 1-2 spells off a turn.
    Last edited by slingbladez; December 28th, 2006 at 23:06.

  9. #8
    Senior Member IamJasonK's Avatar
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    Boo, I definatly am not happy with the Bearer rule.

    As for the FAQ I am now not happy at all with GW. I can't believe that the guy working there would give a conflicting rule. Just proves that this game definatly has way to many rules.

    Geronimo, look out below. Here comes the brother with the offbeat flow. I just fell from the mother ship.

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