Has anyone else heard of/tried this? - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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  1. #1
    LO Zealot MobiusPrime's Avatar
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    86 (x4)

    Has anyone else heard of/tried this?

    I heard rumors of a specific Wood Elf army list that is constantly doing well in tournaments, though the list and tactics are a bit dodgy.

    The heart of the army is a huge 70 man Eternal Guard unit with full command that is lead by two characters (not sure if they are lords or nobles) One is a BSB who carries the banner that causes fear (Standard of Ariel?) and another is a character who takes the pendant that grants a 5+ ward save to himself/mount/unit.

    This creates a unit strength 72 killing machine that causes fear, is stubborn on Ld 9 with a re-roll and has two attacks base, spear fighters in the second row with 5+ armor and a 5+ ward save (I think it gets magic resistance +2 also).

    The two characters that grand their buffs to the unit are guarded by a macked out Treeman Ancient who has the Annoyance of Netlings spite who plants himself directly in front of the two characters so they can't be targetted by attacks. Anything that fights the treeman is...well, fighting a treeman, and anyone that fights the Eternal Guard are fighting the uber unit mentioned in the previous paragraph.

    Anyways, has anyone ever seen this, fought it, or FFS, created it? And what're your thoughts on it?


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  3. #2
    Koosh for the KooshLord kooshlord's Avatar
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    99 (x3)

    Meh. Seems like there are 3 ways to easily deal with it. (also, I believe they are stubborn on LD 8, unless the bodyguard rule specifically allows them to take advantage of the character's leadership. Can I get verification on this?)

    Concentrated fire: they are numerous and ward saved, but they are still T3 with small base size. Anyone with multiple stone throwers, or god-forbid empire mortars, is going to have a field day with that unit. Dwarves in general probably look with glee at that unit. Also, spells that do damage against every member of the unit (several general and racial lores have spells of this sort) is gonna hurt it. And with that many support characters, I'd think the WE army will be a little weak in the anti-magic department.

    Nasty CC units: So it outnumbers and has fear. so what. Charge me my (chosen) khornate warriors with hand weapons and shields right into the non-character supported portion of the unit, and watch the elves fall in droves. They still only have S3 attacks. a reasonable unit of dwarf hammerers supported by a lord should have a field day with them also, as they are also stubborn on leadership 9, and immune to fear.

    Avoid it: while elves are fast, 70 of them are a bit unwieldy, and not exactly subtle. If the unit has to do much in the way of wheeling, it is gonna take forever. Same if it runs into any non-forest difficult terrain. Most armies have fast-cav or similar options for delaying units you don't want to deal with. I think you could just marchblock the heck outta this unit (depending on what else they have, of course).

    So, while a unit like this would pose a nasty suprise, there are a number of ways of dealing with it. I honestly don't think it would be that effective. Plus, it is around 1200 points, including characters and the treeman. Seems like you wouldn't have much left afterwards...

  4. #3
    Son of LO
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    523 (x8)

    If a non-stubborn character is in a stubborn unit then the unit can still use the character's ld, but it will be modified as usual. Alternatively they can use their own stubborn ld.

    For example my Temple Guard can test on the Slann's Ld of 9, or their own stubborn ld of 8 (usually the former in the case of break tests^_^)

    Ciao

    Stonehambey

  5. #4
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Cyric the Mad's Avatar
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    706 (x8)

    If the entirety of this army is one huge unit of EG, a couple of nobles, and a treeman, it seems like it would easily fall victim to the tactics that WE rely on to win - bait and flank. 70 EG, be it 7x10 or 5x14, is going to be exceedingly easy to avoid and trap for all the reasons kooshlord mentioned already. The treeman, while ugly, will fall at some point, at which time (provided the entire unit doesn't get demolished by artillery or magic), the EG will eventually be surrounded and destroyed. Believe me, even at Ld8 + reroll, they will run eventually. As mentioned, they are just elves. Even with 70 of them, they still make a nice "squish" noise.

    For my part, I think eternal guard work best as the bait - get them in combat with an enemy to pin them down long enough for the flankers to arrive. Using them this way just seems wrong somehow, and not at all fun to play... not to mention how utterly boring it must be to paint 70 EG.

  6. #5
    LO Zealot MobiusPrime's Avatar
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    86 (x4)

    Like I said, I've only heard of rumors of this tactic being used from one of my buddies who frequents a different WH forum.

    No doubt there are some effective answers to this unit formation (as there are any unit), it still seems to me like a very dangerous tactic.

    I don't think magic is very effective vs this unit. With +2 magic resistance, most spells will just be a waste to target on them.

    Anything going into this into the front is going against +6 for combat resolution (three ranks, standard, outnumber, BS, plus you are going to be outnumbering with a fear causing unit, so you can break a lot of armies that don't have fear on their side. You'd need something to cover your flanks though. Dryads and Wardancers maybe.

    The only easy way I see to beat this unit is to shoot it to death. I've one shot a Treeman Ancient with my Screaming Skulls Catapult before, so he shouldn't be too much of a problem for me, then focus my catapults onto the unit. It's big, so it's easy to hit.

  7. #6
    Koosh for the KooshLord kooshlord's Avatar
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    99 (x3)

    Thanks for posting this conundrum. I find it interesting, and it's not a trivial problem for any army to deal with. But while the EG/treeman combo looks nasty on paper, I think most balanced armies with reasonably experienced generals could deal with it without that much trouble.

    Shooting:
    -A few rounds of flame cannon would probably yield victory.

    Combo:
    -Kill the treeman (shoot or charge, depending on race), then charge, challenge, and kill the support characters. Even if it is a suicide charge, you'll probably make up the VP killing the BSB alone.

    CC:
    Flankem with a half-decent ranked unit. 25 Warriors of khorne with full command are half the cost, and would destroy the elves in droves with a flank attack. Saurus warriors, savage orcs, bret. knights-errant

    Another way of examining them, here's standard responses to the WE-EG list by army:
    Empire/Dwarves: Shoot it to pieces, or use unbreakable or equivalent troops to stall it.
    Elves (any): march block with eagles/harpies/fast-cav and avoid.
    Chaos (any)/Ogres/Lizardmen: Get some ranked infantry with nasty character, charge first the treeman, then the EG. All these armies can probably run right through both units in a few turns.
    Undead: artillery, or keep raising Skellies against them. MR doesn't help against spells cast on other units.
    Orcs: this would probably work pretty good against most orc armies... low leadership, limited ability to march-block, minimal shooting
    Brets: flank-charge them with ranked knights(errant?) /marchblock with pegs./ trebuchet
    Skaven: don't know enough to comment.

    Basically, the 'standard' army for most races includes some easy ways to deal with the unit. Its a nasty unit, I'll definately give you that. But it eats SOOO many points that I doubt you can support it properly. And it is still made of elves, so the brutal (rather than finesse) CC armies often include characters/units which can walk right through this unit, for cheaper.

    (Thanks for the stubborn rule confirmation, Stonehambey!)

    -Koosh

  8. #7
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    -8 (x0)

    How about the item that teleports you? Hmmm? Add 3 Spellsingers (vs Dwarfs) take the staff that helps reroll dispells and then the one that adds an addition die for spells over 3 (which are really nice...) and tree sing to the front of the enemy.

  9. #8
    Koosh for the KooshLord kooshlord's Avatar
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    99 (x3)

    Quote Originally Posted by ...got Rending? View Post
    How about the item that teleports you? Hmmm? Add 3 Spellsingers (vs Dwarfs) take the staff that helps reroll dispells and then the one that adds an addition die for spells over 3 (which are really nice...) and tree sing to the front of the enemy.
    I'm not quite sure I understand you. I'm really not that familiar with WE, and especially with which characters can take what items. Please help me flesh this out:

    The WE/EG army has a treeman ancient, a BSB, and at least 1 other character with a ward save item. I think this leaves 1 character available (not sure what choices the TMA uses). Assuming that the treeman is a caster, and both non-BSB characters are casters, you've got your 3 mages (spellsingers?) there. I'm not sure if these characters can take all these items due to arcane item restrictions and points limits, at least not in 2K points. Any thoughts?

    If you CAN teleport this unit of doom + accompanying treeman around then it is A LOT scarier. That would completely invalidate the march-blocking stuff, and seriously limit the shooting options.

    shudders,
    Koosh

  10. #9
    /botnobot/ DavidWC09's Avatar
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    1283 (x8)

    I've seen the list and read the guy's explanation. It works pretty darned well. And he did a cool job modeling them.

    Here is his site for the list.
    Painting Videos--My Warriors of Chaos--WHFB Tactica Index
    *************************************************

  11. #10
    Member Jimmy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ...got Rending? View Post
    How about the item that teleports you? Hmmm? Add 3 Spellsingers (vs Dwarfs) take the staff that helps reroll dispells and then the one that adds an addition die for spells over 3 (which are really nice...) and tree sing to the front of the enemy.
    A big unit of 70 models is going to be hard to fit in a forest to teleport, and then you need another forest on the table to move to.

    Plus the treemen would be left behind if the unit teleports.

    In 2k points you could have, noble BSB, Highborn General, and up to 2 mages. along with 2 treemen and some GG or glade riders, to give you some manoeuvrability. Plus help fill out core choices. And a 2 units of 8 dryads to fill any holes.

    I think that this list could be quite powerful, but also very weak to shooty armies.
    "Incoming fire has the right of way"

    Witch Hunters 23~15~4 W/L/D
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