Eternal Guard vs. High Elf Spearmen - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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  1. #1
    Senior Member trodi's Avatar
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    Eternal Guard vs. High Elf Spearmen

    Ok I've been thinking and well even though Eternal Guard are great with a noble/highborn, wouldn't they be a fearsome enemy even without that added boost? To determin this I have looked to compare the HE spearman with the EG, since they seem very similar.

    EDIT: WE spearmen have slightly better leadership and WS, and are slightly more expensive. Sorry to get rid of exact stats, its an interesting comparison, but I'm fairly sure as listed it was also in direct violation of GW copyright. -Koosh

    HE: lt Armor, Shield, Hand Weapon, Spear. Fight in 3 ranks.
    WE: 5+ Armor Save. Fight in 2 ranks (First rank gets 2 attacks).

    In Combat: (FC)
    HE: 16A, need 4s to hit = 8 hits (WE save 2.66, aka WE 5.33 wounds)
    WE: 16A need 3s to hit = 10.66 hits (HE save 3.55, aka HE 7.106 wounds) *assuming HE has 5+save*
    (Do HE get 5+ armor save or 4+?, they have to use their spears to fight in ranks, not hand weapon?)

    This along with higher Ld would seem to justify the cost of one extra point per model. Then, would not EG still be a good unit to have without the noble?

    I mainly bring this us to pose the possibility of EG as a good supporting unit to more EG. Say you have a unit fo 20 EG with Highborn and with it you run a sort of detachment or between 10-20 more EG without a noble.

    Last edited by kooshlord; June 8th, 2007 at 17:11. Reason: removed Violation of GW copyright
    Armies: Wood Elves, High Elves
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  3. #2
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Cyric the Mad's Avatar
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    I think the reason people don't often use EG without a noble attached is because, as cool as they are without a noble, they're 10x cooler with one. However, you bring up an interesting point.

    I never put a lot of thought into using EG without heros attached, mainly because, in my experience, EG get picked on a lot, being one of the few enemies that opponents know aren't horribly sneaky. After looking at a deployment full of skirmishers, flyers, and fast cav, I noticed that opponents tend to look at my unit of EG very hungrily. 9 out of 10 times, this works for me. I'm usually hoping that they'll go after the EG, get bogged down, and be flanked.

    Keep in mind as well that maybe 50% of the time will the EG actually do the charging. This isn't horribly telling, since losing that 2nd rank isn't a huge hindrance, but if you've got a detachment of 10 sitting out there, your enemy will try to bring it down first. 10 EG can't stand up to many charges, especially those that negate their save... which seems to happen every time I get in combat with them.

    It is an interesting point though. Perhaps if I wasn't so single-minded with my EG it would seem less strange. Let us know how it works out.

  4. #3
    Senior Member trodi's Avatar
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    Well yes 10 EG aren't that menacing, plus WE have many good units that can act kinda as detachments . I was more thinking of having a unit of 15 or full unit of 20 more to augment the other unit of 20 with noble. Less risk then putting them all in one unit and this gives you the option of using one of your heros for something else you want. (i.e. an alter or wardancer noble etc)

    p.s.-Does anyone know the armor save question in my first post? Just wondering.
    Armies: Wood Elves, High Elves
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  5. #4
    Senior Member IamJasonK's Avatar
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    I have to agree the reason most people don't use them is because other units usually make better detachments for support. Since, you already have a unit going head to head units of Dryads, Wardancers can make a better choice because they have better movement options. The thing about detachments is they need to be fast and hit hard. Holding power doesn't really need to be a feature.

    I currently use a double Anvil method supported by Treekin in the middle to prevent them from splitting my anvils and Wardancers if possible or Dryads on the sides for hammers. I only take one unit of EG in my army, I find with out their special ability they usually barely break even on VP.
    Last edited by IamJasonK; June 8th, 2007 at 04:14.

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  6. #5
    Koosh for the KooshLord kooshlord's Avatar
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    HE spears get a 5+ save when using their fight in three ranks rules. They can opt to use hand weapons and shields, and light armor instead, for a 4+ save.

    IMO, only reason to flank with EG is to remove rank bonuses (skirmishers don't do this I believe, according to my latest reading of the BRB skirmisher section). However, the WE have cavalry and treekin to remove rank bonuses, and these units are more versatile for other roles than the EG are. And wardancers and dryads both hit harder in CC than the EG do.

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    Senior Member trodi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kooshlord View Post
    HE spears get a 5+ save when using their fight in three ranks rules. They can opt to use hand weapons and shields, and light armor instead, for a 4+ save.

    Thanks.

    However, the WE have cavalry and treekin to remove rank bonuses
    All WE cavalry is fast cav and there fore can not negate rank bonus.
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  8. #7
    Koosh for the KooshLord kooshlord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trodi View Post
    All WE cavalry is fast cav and there fore can not negate rank bonus.
    You're welcome, glad to help.

    Confused. {confused} I thought fast cav could negate ranks. I don't have a copy of the BRB on me, can we get a third party ruling on this question please?

    -Koosh
    Arena of Death Champion: Nexim of the Guldskullz Tribe. Fear my wrath!

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    Senior Member xrix1's Avatar
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    Fast cav doesn't get rank bonuses, but do negate ranks.

  10. #9
    Senior Member DotR's Avatar
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    I thought fast cav could negate ranks.
    They absolutely do.

    Nowhere does it say that they do not negate rank bonus. They simply cannot gain a rank bonus of their own.

  11. #10
    Senior Member trodi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DotR View Post
    They absolutely do.

    Nowhere does it say that they do not negate rank bonus. They simply cannot gain a rank bonus of their own.
    Man someone told me that, thanks for telling me! I don't see it anywhere under the Fast Cav section either.
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