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  1. #1
    Sadomachiatto Karmoon's Avatar
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    790 (x8)

    1500 VS Marines and Eldar

    Dear all - this list is for the 2TW

    I desperately need your help. Please be as rough as you like.
    I need to kill Marines and stinking, filthy, dirty, annoying Eldar.
    So, power armour and skimmers a gogo.

    2TW Nid list

    HQ:
    Flyrant x 1
    Wings, Scything Talons x 2, Toxin Sacs, Miasma,
    149

    Gun Tyrant x 1
    Venom Cannon, Scything Talons, Enchanted senses, Extended Carapace,
    158

    ELITES:


    TROOPS:

    Genestealers - Standard x 8

    Extended Carapace,
    160

    Genestealers - Karmoon concoction x 8

    Toxin Sacs, F'hooks,
    160

    Spine Gaunts x 15

    75

    Spine Gaunts x 15

    75


    FAST ATTACK:

    Ravener x 1
    Rending/Scy Talon,
    40

    Ravener x 1
    Rending/Scy Talon,
    40

    Ravener x 1
    Rending/Scy Talon
    40

    HEAVY SUPPORT:

    Zoanthropes x 3

    Synapse, Warp Blast
    195

    Grendel Fex x 1
    Enchanted Senses, Venom Cannon, TL Devourer,

    138

    Gun Fex x 1
    Enchanted Senses, Venom Cannon, Barbie Strangler,
    148

    Total Models: 56

    So my question is how to spend the last 122 points?
    More stealers? A red terror? More raveners?

    Your help is MUCH appreciated.

    Kind regards

    Karmoon.

    ++ EDIT ++

    I am strongly considering 8 gargoyles for the last 120 points.
    In 2TW they have special rules against Flyers.. which will be usefull I imagine...

    Last edited by Karmoon; August 2nd, 2007 at 13:36.
    LO Rules

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    Anyone who's as loyal and motivated to doing what they love as you are is respectable in my book
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyric
    I'm taking leave of my senses and shall be out of my mind until further notice.

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  3. #2
    WarmaHorde Pathofskulls's Avatar
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    91 (x6)

    122 points?
    I'll find something for those points.

    Gun Tyrant x 1
    Venom Cannon, Scything Talons, Enchanted senses, Extended Carapace,
    158
    Some gun tyrant only has one gun. Either give a barbed strangler too or give him a set of twin-linked devourers. Oh and give him toxin sacs.

    Genestealers - Karmoon concoction x 8

    Toxin Sacs, F'hooks,
    160
    Why toxin sacs? Your aiming for 6's here, your killing easily enough as long as your a good roll.

    Grendel Fex x 1
    Enchanted Senses, Venom Cannon, TL Devourer,
    If you dropped the venom cannon here for another set of Devs, you could probably have enough points for a duplicate fex, which you could then put into your elite slots.
    Legion Of Everblight: Abyslonia
    Protectorate of Menoth: Grand Exemplar Kreoss

  4. #3
    Sadomachiatto Karmoon's Avatar
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    790 (x8)

    Ok.. what about this?


    HQ:
    Flyrant x 1
    Wings, Scything talons, Toxin sacs, Miasma, Adrenal (I), symbiote ripps,
    155

    Tyrant x 1
    Venom cannon, TL Devourer, Toxin sacs, Enchanted senses,
    149

    ELITES:

    Lictor x 2
    160

    TROOPS:

    Genies x 8
    extended carapace, , , , , , , , ,
    160

    Genies x 8
    extended carapace, , , , , , , , ,
    160

    Gaunts x 15
    75

    Gaunts x 15
    75


    FAST ATTACK:

    Ravener x 1
    40

    Ravener x 1
    40

    HEAVY SUPPORT:

    Zoanthropes x 3
    195

    Gunfex x 1
    reinforced chitin, , , , , , , , ,
    163

    Devil Fex x 1
    reinforced chitin, , , , , , , , ,
    128

    Total Models: 57
    Total Vehicles: 0

    HQ 20%
    ELITE 11%
    TROOPS 31%
    FAST ATTACK 5%
    HEAVY SUPPORT 32%
    Last edited by Karmoon; August 2nd, 2007 at 23:51. Reason: tidying up list
    LO Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous
    Anyone who's as loyal and motivated to doing what they love as you are is respectable in my book
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyric
    I'm taking leave of my senses and shall be out of my mind until further notice.

  5. #4
    WarmaHorde Pathofskulls's Avatar
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    91 (x6)

    Supposing I understand your list proper, the only thing I see that I don't like/find use for are the symbiote rippers, perhaps flesh hooks for some of the bigger guys?
    Legion Of Everblight: Abyslonia
    Protectorate of Menoth: Grand Exemplar Kreoss

  6. #5
    Charitably Tables People MVBrandt's Avatar
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    196 (x5)

    Karmoon,


    1) The Hive Tyrants

    - This guy is good ... but why symbiote rippers? Flyrants usually get shot at a lot ... and because of how much closer they get in a hurry, have the *risk* of lots of rapid fire. Warp Field is nice, but not when you are limited in points. I got no beef with him not having it.

    - I'd recommend strongly doing VC+BS or 2 x TL Devourer. You'll get more love for single purpose out of one or the other, and you'll be firing all your guns from a distance, or lots more bullets up close. Let the Carnifexes and Zoanthropes take care of anti-vehicle - they're quite good at it - and hook him up with 2 TL Devourers, toxin sacs, and enhanced senses. 121 points of love.

    2) Elite

    - How do you like your Lictors? I feel they never perform all that well. They're useful in escalation. If that's your purpose for having them, maybe just 1? Idunno.
    - 105 point squads of twinlinked devourer / toxin sacs /enhanced senses warriors carefully moved through cover can be really, really valuable additions to this type of army, and they actually usually get missed in the mayhem as people deal with the Troops swarms or the big gribblies. I don't know if there's really room for that in your list, but I always toss the idea out there.

    3) Troops

    - I don't personally like genestealers. I believe they are too fragile for their cost, are hit-or-miss, and aren't as good at what they do as Raveners in a list that isn't desperately full of them. I think 2 small squads are going to draw dedicated fire from smart opponents fast, and against skimmer fast eldar or whirlwind-using marines I worry you won't be able to effectively hide them effectively behind the monstrous creatures. Raveners in smaller squads will be easier to keep hidden, and will be less costly to lose. Drop the stealers, pick up more spinegaunts (which point for point will actually perform better and soak fire better than the stealers), and add 1 more ravener to each fast attack solution.

    - Spinegaunts are fandamnedtastic. They are guaranteed to earn their way even if all they do is die. Well, if they run off the table they don't really earn their keep. But you don't cry about it much either, which means if your synapse gets fried in a bad location they're the least worrisome things to see go running. This advice is based off never having lost synapse coverage unintentionally before in a game, so take that with a grain of salt.

    4) Fast Attack

    - Don't get gargoyles ... please? Your raveners are guaranteed to earn their points back if you keep them tucked away and sidling up BEHIND trees and level 3 terrain and monstrous creatures until they're within their 19-24" charge range. Use these to kill terminators, assault squads, death companies, wraithlords, etc. Much easier to deliver to the target unmolested than genestealers, and more lethal per point on the charge.

    - Add one more to each squad, even if you change nothing else in the army there's your 120 leftover points. Then give each fex flesh hooks, so you can start them BEHIND a building or wall you want to deploy them in, and waltz up on it on turn 1 in case you don't get first turn (keeps 'em from gettin' shot up if you lose the first turn roll).

    5) Heavy Support

    - 3 Synapse Zoanthropes ... I used to use 3 65 point thropes, and eventually found 105 point 3warrior squads as detailed above gave me a much stronger offensive punch against infantry, while still surviving fine if I kept them in cover due to 3 times as many wounds, and performing much better if I had to shore up an unexpected melee. This is personal preference, if you like 3 zoas fantastic! I worry that they lose value against Eldar with holo-fields and psykers who can screw with your tests. I STRONGLY urge you to put Shadow in the Warp on your least-likely-to-die Tyrant, so that your zoas can't ever pop their heads off, and so that enemy Eldarish psychic-heavy armies are taking all tests on 3d6. It's a very well-spent 10 points, esp. for a tourney.

    - I don't like Chitin. *shrug* I use sniperfexes, keep them in hard cover wherever possible, and take potshots at vehicles or infantry squads once the vehicles are gone. I use them for that pretty much exclusively, and if my opponent really wants to dedicate the lascannon/heavy weapon fire required to kill 4 fex wounds in 4+ cover ... fine. He just cost himself the game in stopping power vs. the other things coming at him. Personal preference only.

    - Sniperfexes are bettor. I don't know what's up w/ the VC/TL Devourer dude. You've got one AP4 S10 weapon that's really only very good vs. vehicles, and one S6 AP- 4 shot weapon that's really only great vs. infantry. Pick a purpose. The reason sniperfexes are so much better than VC/BS Tyrants is that you get 2 S10 and a S8 that CAN penetrate, whereas the Tyrant's strangler is going to be too weak for anti-vehicle duty, causing wasted shots. It's somewhat reasonable to put a VC/TL DEV on a Tyrant, since you still get 9 shots, but on a fex it just doesn't seem wise ... My $.02 is I'd make 'em both sniperfexes and dedicate them to stopping eldar skimmers and space marine vehicles in general FAST.

    GL Karm, hope some of this drivel helps {goofy}




    PS

    Went back over your OP.

    Killing power armor is NOT in my opinion about BYPASSING it. Tyranid are no good at that. Our rending critters are actually quite expensive and fragile, and our AP3 shots are ... um ... HAY ZOANTHROPES LOOK A TINY BLAST THAT HITS ON 4+.

    Devourers are marine killers. Marines also don't have huge squad sizes, and most of them don't have the Initiative to keep up with any elite Tyranid units. I've found a far better way of cracking them than trying to rush into them with stealers before they chew you up, is to trick yourself out with as many bullets as possible and go toe to toe with them while advancing patiently. They may hit you with a smaller number of high powered shots, but they'll melt under high volume devourer and even spinefist fire, because 1/3 wounds you cause kills a model with an average point value of over 20 points once you consider squad upgrades (and even more w/ new codices). For anything that gets lucky or stays out of the way or tries to tie you up in combat cleverly, just toss the raveners out from hiding as a countercharge into them and it'll mop 'em up good.

    Also, in a recent blog entry of mine I think I did a math-up of why spinegaunts kill marines better than genestealers point-for-point ... might wanna read. *shrug* (Bias: I don't like genestealers, they strike me as a waste of points and too hard to hide due to unit sizes and an inhibition against using Nidzilla walls).
    Nids & Guard
    GMail = MVBrandt

  7. #6
    Sadomachiatto Karmoon's Avatar
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    790 (x8)

    Nid lists are complex.. a lot of conflicting advice, but i'm greatful for it all.

    Power armour can be denied through weight of shots, I'll defintiely salute this.

    As for genies effectiveness, I do understand your concerns MVBRANDT, but I've also seen them be very effective. They'good troops, but i know not to rely on them entirely.

    I like your advice on the mixing and matching of tyrant stuff and carnifex stuff.

    i'm paranoid of those dirty fairy vehicles with their stinking dirty fields.
    LO Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous
    Anyone who's as loyal and motivated to doing what they love as you are is respectable in my book
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyric
    I'm taking leave of my senses and shall be out of my mind until further notice.

  8. #7
    Charitably Tables People MVBrandt's Avatar
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    196 (x5)

    NP and hope it helps.

    Also, re: stealers, I do agree they CAN be effective, they just don't suit me at all.

    It's actually entertaining when I play against stealer-heavy genies.

    I turn into a dirty stinking back-of-the-boardsman practically in my efforts to try and set them up for a round of shooting and not let them sneak up on me.
    Nids & Guard
    GMail = MVBrandt

  9. #8
    It's a Trap! Warrior47's Avatar
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    168 (x5)

    HQ:
    Flyrant x 1
    Wings, Scything talons, Toxin sacs, Miasma, Adrenal (I), symbiote ripps,
    155
    Just a minor thing, but I really haven't ever understood the point of miasma. From looking at the to hit chart, I'm pretty sure that +1 ws is just as good as -1 for everyone else and it saves you 2 points. Nothing major, but sometimes those points can add up to an extra upgrade or something. Symbiote rippers is also a little silly, but I'm guessing it's there because you just had a couple points left.

    Tyrant x 1
    Venom cannon, TL Devourer, Toxin sacs, Enchanted senses,
    149
    Looks good. I think the devourer will help you much more than the scything talons would have. The only thing I have with your tyrants overall is that they don't have any save modifiers, which I would definately suggest atleast for the cc one.

    ELITES:

    Lictor x 2
    160

    TROOPS:

    Genies x 8
    extended carapace, , , , , , , , ,
    160

    Genies x 8
    extended carapace, , , , , , , , ,
    160

    Gaunts x 15
    75

    Gaunts x 15
    75

    FAST ATTACK:

    Ravener x 1
    40

    Ravener x 1
    40
    Looks fine. I prefer to have some troops that can move quickly and tie up enemies, but with the lictors, raveners and tyrant, you may not need that.

    HEAVY SUPPORT:

    Zoanthropes x 3
    195
    I don't know, I always like thropes dispite what people say as I have had a couple of times that their tank shot really saved me and the other times I use them as relatively resiliant distractions that also happen to be able to kill marines well, so I think you should keep um.

    Gunfex x 1
    reinforced chitin, , , , , , , , ,
    163

    Devil Fex x 1
    reinforced chitin, , , , , , , , ,
    128
    Frankly I prefer just the normal ec on fexes, but when playing against marines and eldar, you are probably up against lascannons, rending and such, so the other two upgrades wouldn't effect much. Just make sure that they stay out of small arms fire.

    So nothing really major from me. The biggest concern that I have is for your cc tyrant. I would really try and find room for warp field. It's just that that thing is going to be a giant target and the longer it lasts, the onger other fire is kept off of fexes and it'll last longer in cc. Good list though.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Paint Monkey
    I can't offer anything new here but I just laughed my arse off that LO has an Irish accent.

  10. #9
    Charitably Tables People MVBrandt's Avatar
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    196 (x5)

    Just my own hint that Toxic Miasma is significantly better than +1WS.

    Why, you ask?

    If you charge in with a bunch of Tyranid Warriors as well, suddenly they are WS4 against -1 WS also.

    It subtracts WS from all targets of the Hive Tyrant, and this applies to anyone fighting the Tyrant, and anyone they are fighting. So, similarly, if they try to ignore the Tyrant and attack some other squad, they still are being attacked BY him and so are using -1WS.

    It's wonderful when you bring spinegaunts along and suddenly they have the same WS as Space Marines.

    So, Adrenal(WS) benefits only the Hive Tyrant, and Toxic Miasma benefits every Tyranid unit in the combat.

    BUT THERE'S MORE. :w00t:

    If you have +WS, vs. WS3 opponents you are still hitting on a 3+ and they are hitting you on a 4+. If you have Toxic Miasma you are hitting on a 3+ and they are hitting on a 5+.

    +WS
    WS 3 opponent vs. WS6 Hive Tyrant = 4+ to hit

    :shifty:

    Miasma
    WS2 opponent vs. WS5 Hive Tyrant = 5+ to hit

    This helps greatly against WS3 opponents with high strength power weapons (hidden pfists in guard squads for instance), and applies to many other situations as well.

    An upcoming one is the newly WS3 Defiler in the new Chaos Codex when it releases. Defiler with ALL CLOSE COMBAT UPGRADES charges hive tyrant with 6 S10 attacks! OWAIT he attacks last and hits on a 5+ only.

    In situations where it's just Hive Tyrant vs. WS4 or better opponent, well Toxic Miasma is identical to Adrenal(WS).

    So yea
    Nids & Guard
    GMail = MVBrandt

  11. #10
    Son of LO LordLink's Avatar
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    228 (x8)

    Point of toxic miasma is that it will help out anyone else that happens to be in cc at the time. Adrenal Glands won't.

    If theres some gaunts of some kind in cc with him they can really benefit from just 2 more points spent. Raveners too, I think raveners only have average weapon skill (can't remember).

    EDIT: beat me to it.
    Check out my Codex: Farmyard Animals here!

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