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  1. #1
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    New to nids -- a first attempt at a 1500 point list.

    Hi all. I play Eldar, generally, to a decent (if unspectacular) level of competency. I love the army, but I'm feeling the need for something a bit different. Something that plays in a more aggressive, claws-forward kind of a way. Tyranids fit that role, I think, pretty well.

    Also, 'Nids look great. They are incredible models, and I want them.

    So I've put together a list. I don't necessarily need it to win all the time, but I'd like it to be at least marginally competitive in a casual/competitive setting. Mostly, I want to have fun with it. Here it is. Let me know what you think. Any and all comments would be greatly appreciated.

    HQ
    Hive Tyrant: Wings, 2x Scything Talons, Adrenals (+WS), Flesh Hooks -- 151 pts
    Broodlord: Ex. Carapace, Toxin Sacs, Flesh Hooks, Feeder Tendrils -- 100 pts
    -- 5x Genestealer Retinue: Ex. Carapace, Flesh hooks -- 105 pts

    Troops
    Hormagaunts x15: No upgrades -- 150 pts
    Hormagaunts x16: No upgrades -- 160 pts
    Genestealers x6: Ex. Carapace, Scuttlers -- 138 pts
    Genestealers x6: As above -- 138 pts

    Heavy Support
    Carnifex: Enhanced Senses, 2x Devourer, Reinforced Chitin, Spinebanks -- 133 pts
    Carnifex: As above -- 133 pts
    Carnifex: Enhanced Senses, Reinforced Chitin, Venom Cannon, Barbed Strangler, Adrenals (+WS), Mace Tail -- 172 pts

    Fast Attack
    Raveners x3: Scything Talons & Rending Claws -- 120 pts

    1500 on the nose.

    Basically, just about everything screams forward behind the 'gaunts (which try to tie up shooting units until the genestealers arrive). The 'fexes shoot up armour and combat units as much as possible.

    Thoughts? Should I run the Raveners as three broods of one, or one of three? Should I split up the gaunts into three groups (10/10/11)? Errr... anything else?


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  3. #2
    Member Bhelliom's Avatar
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    Only advice I can offer from my limited experience thus far is this:

    Max out your troop slots....you have 6, use them

    So maybe 2x Genestealer broods and 4 x hormie broods, I would basically halve the two hormie broods so there are four.

    The smaller broods are easier to manage and give the opponent more targets to worry about.

    And if your only using the gaunts as a meat sheild maybe consider cheaper gaunts, like a spinegaunt or termagaunt, you can double your gaunt numbers and they are still decent in CC, and a spine/terma gaunt dies just as fast as the hormie but is less points.

    I like the hormies so I use them as well, maybe you could look at:

    2x8 hormie broods
    2x6 Stealer broods
    2x8 spinegaunt brood. = 70 points saved to throw at something else.

    The Venom Cannon/Barbed strangler fex (aka Sniperfex).... consider losing the mace tail, it will generally not get into CC to ever need to use it so not the most cost effective. With the savings on the gaunts and mace tail then you almost have the points for a lictor If you want to just have some fun throw a lictor into your list...I've had some very "fun" reactions from opponents when they are focused on the army ahead and a lictor pops up in amongst them.

    Hope this helps a bit.
    Last edited by Bhelliom; November 16th, 2007 at 22:06.

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    Good advice, thank you kindly. How's this for a revision? I dumped the mace-tail and the (+WS) Adrenal glands on my sniper-fex, and the feeder tendrils on my broodlord. I also made the changes you suggested to my 'gaunts, and put in a Lictor.

    Good changes? Bad changes? Anything else leaping out?

    EDIT: Also, do I have enough Synapse? Only two Synapse creatures, and both are going to be fire-magnets. Of course, everything with low leadership/no brood telepathy is designed to be dead by turn 3ish anyway, so it might not be a huge issue. I could drop a unit of spinegaunts and throw Warp Field on my Tyrant or -- alternately, drop the Broodlord for a unit of Warriors (of the CC variety).

    Thoughts?

    HQ
    Hive Tyrant: Wings, 2x Scything Talons, Adrenals (+WS), Flesh Hooks -- 151 pts
    Broodlord: Ex. Carapace, Toxin Sacs, Flesh Hooks -- 97pts
    -- 5x Genestealer Retinue: Ex. Carapace, Flesh hooks -- 105 pts

    Elite
    Lictor -- 80pts

    Troops
    Hormagaunts x8: No upgrades -- 80 pts
    Hormagaunts x8: No upgrades -- 80 pts
    Spinegaunts x8: No upgrades -- 40 pts
    Spinegaunts x8: No upgrades -- 40 pts
    Genestealers x6: Ex. Carapace, Scuttlers -- 138 pts
    Genestealers x6: As above -- 138 pts

    Heavy Support
    Carnifex: Enhanced Senses, 2x Devourer, Reinforced Chitin, Spinebanks -- 133 pts
    Carnifex: As above -- 133 pts
    Carnifex: Enhanced Senses, Reinforced Chitin, Venom Cannon, Barbed Strangler -- 163 pts

    Fast Attack
    Raveners x3: Scything Talons & Rending Claws -- 120 pts
    Last edited by Grimm; November 18th, 2007 at 22:00.

  5. #4
    Member RudyPicardo's Avatar
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    Hive Commander Grimm

    I think Hive Commander Bhelliom's comments are fine. I wanted to chime in on a few things based on the games I've played

    1) I do think your Synapse is a bit weak, but it really depends on your games. I think other Hive Commanders can make arguments for or against the current strength of your synapse web. Your cheapest choice is to get a Zoanthrope (1 or 2 should be good enough)/ To help get the Zoanthrope I would do the following 2 things:
    a) remove the lictor
    b) Make your Devilfex/Dakkafex (Carnifex with 2 x TL Devourers) as simple as possible and move it into the Elites slot. I assume that you know that you can do this. But let me know if you're not sure.


    2) In regards to the lictor, I agree that its a great looking model and can really wreak havoc on squads. Oddly enough its stronger than the base Hive Tyrant too. My issue is that is that its not a scoring unit, which can mean a lot in objective based games. True you don't gain a scoring unit by getting the Zoanthrope, but you do gain a stronger Synapse web.


    3) In 1500 point games, I prefer to max out my Winged Tyrant (adding the initiative upgrade, warp field, etc). If you can squeeze out the points, I'd at least add the toxin sacs strength upgrade.

    4) I'm not sold on the scuttlers on the genestealers yet, but its something you can consider. Genestealers already are dangerous and most will choose to shoot it. The scuttlers option just allows your opponent to shoot at them. However, with your infiltrating brood lord, and fast hormgaunts, it makes for an interesting choice.
    Rudy Wilfred Picardo
    Tyranid Player
    Current Record (W/L/D) 143/112/60
    Recent Battle - 1500 pt draw vs. IG player (mission: Seek And Destroy)

  6. #5
    Senior Member PoptartsNinja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimm View Post
    HQ
    Hive Tyrant: Wings, 2x Scything Talons, Adrenals (+WS), Flesh Hooks -- 151 pts
    I don't like fielding Tyrants without Warp Field at this point-level. You may want to proxy a Tyrant in a few games to get a feel for him before deciding on a final loadout... I personally find a 2x twin-linked devourer Flyrant to be more effective in more situations then the 2x scything talon Flyrant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimm View Post
    Broodlord: Ex. Carapace, Toxin Sacs, Flesh Hooks, Feeder Tendrils -- 100 pts
    -- 5x Genestealer Retinue: Ex. Carapace, Flesh hooks -- 105 pts
    Fairly expensive for five genestealers. I'd consider dropping the Flesh Hooks... these guys are essentially just ablative armour for your Brood Lord. As the only other synapse creature in your list... I must seriously advise you to try a cheap Zoanthrope for back-up synapse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimm View Post
    Troops
    Hormagaunts x15: No upgrades -- 150 pts
    Hormagaunts x16: No upgrades -- 160 pts
    Squad sizes are OK here. I never field less then 12 gaunts in a brood, because then they become too easy to wipe out. I'm also not a fan of Hormagaunts. For two more points, you can have Gargoyles which are faster and more dangerous, or for about half the points you can pick up almost double the number (or exactly double the number) in Termagants or Spinegaunts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimm View Post
    Genestealers x6: Ex. Carapace, Scuttlers -- 138 pts
    Genestealers x6: As above -- 138 pts
    I'm not a fan of Scuttlers... but your mileage may vary. Try it out for a few games, but these genestealers are awfully expensive and scuttling makes them the fastest thing in your army... and remember, most of your opponents are going to shoot the fastest thing in your army first.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimm View Post
    Heavy Support
    Carnifex: Enhanced Senses, 2x Devourer, Reinforced Chitin, Spinebanks -- 133 pts
    Carnifex: As above -- 133 pts
    A single devilfex is good, although Spine Banks are rather lacklustre. Taking two provides you virtually no benefit, you're probably better off with paired Gunfexes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimm View Post
    Carnifex: Enhanced Senses, Reinforced Chitin, Venom Cannon, Barbed Strangler, Adrenals (+WS), Mace Tail -- 172 pts
    Hm... where to begin? AG (WS) but not AG(I)? A tail weapon? This guy's definitely trying to do too much. Worse, he'll be out of synapse range for most of the game. Carnifexes do have to take instinctive behaviour tests, so a cheap synapse Zoanthrope would do this guy a world of good. Gunfexes are also substantially better in pairs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimm View Post
    Fast Attack
    Raveners x3: Scything Talons & Rending Claws -- 120 pts
    Decent, but set up wrong. Don't take one brood of 3 Raveners... take three broods of 1 ravener (and then field them together). Not only do the extra models help you for deployment purposes, but as a brood of one, they don't have to take as many morale tests and are /much/ harder for a single squad to exterminate (One squad can shoot down one brood of three raveners in one turn with good rolling. One squad CAN'T shoot down three broods of one ravener in one turn).

    Updated List
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimm View Post
    Elite
    Lictor -- 80pts
    A surprising addition. Lictors are decent, provided you know what to hit with them... they're great for taking out dangerous ranged units in the early-game, or for supporting gaunt-swarms later in the game, but they'll rarely earn their points back. I'd probably trade this guy out for a Synapse Zoanthrope, if you can.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimm View Post
    Troops
    Hormagaunts x8: No upgrades -- 80 pts
    Hormagaunts x8: No upgrades -- 80 pts
    Spinegaunts x8: No upgrades -- 40 pts
    Spinegaunts x8: No upgrades -- 40 pts
    Genestealers x6: Ex. Carapace, Scuttlers -- 138 pts
    Genestealers x6: As above -- 138 pts
    Again, I'd drop scuttlers... and your squad sizes are very small. It'll give you a lot of mobility, but not a lot of durability, so cover is now vital for your gaunt swarm as well as your genestealers...

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimm View Post
    Carnifex: Enhanced Senses, Reinforced Chitin, Venom Cannon, Barbed Strangler -- 163 pts
    If at all possible, I'd dump one of the devilfexes in favor of a synapse Zoanthrope (or two... or three) to support your army. Your mileage may vary, but this guy's going to be in the back of your army and out of synapse range for the whole game, and having a couple of durable synapse creatures (literally) floating around can help pick up the slack... because it's highly unlikely that your Tyrant and Brood Lord will survive the game.

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    Hi gentlemen,

    Sorry that I haven't responded to your great comments before now. Not intentional rudeness -- I assure you -- just caught away from my computer for a while. Anyway, I've taken your thoughts into consideration and made some (rather extensive) changes to the list. I haven't worked in every suggestion you made, but most of them.

    Let me know what you think.

    HQ:

    Tyrant -- Wings, 2x Scything Talons, Warp Field, Adrenaline Glands (WS), Toxin Sacs. 182 pts. I didn't put devourers on him, mostly because I want a mostly charging, in your face, screaming, drooling army.
    Broodlord -- Ex. Carapace, Toxin Sacs, Flesh Hooks. 97 pts
    -- 5x Genestealers, Ex. Carapace. 100 pts I figure the ablative shield needs at least a little armor-plating.

    Troops:
    Spinegaunts x10 -- no upgrades. 50 pts
    Spinegaunts x9 -- no upgrades. 45 pts
    Spinegaunts x9 -- no upgrades. 45 pts
    Spinegaunts x9 -- no upgrades. 45 pts
    Genestealers x6 -- Ex. Carapace. 120 pts
    Genestealers x6 -- Ex. Carapace. 120 pts

    Elites:
    Carnifex -- Extended Senses, 2x TL Devourers. 113 pts

    Heavy Support:
    Carnifex -- Extended Senses, Reinforced Chitin, Venom Cannon, Barbed Strangler. 163 pts
    Carnifex -- Extended Senses, Reinforced Chitin, Venom Cannon, Barbed Strangler. 163 pts
    Zoanthrope -- Synapse Creature. 135 pts

    Fast Attack:
    Ravener -- Scything claws & rending talons. 40 pts
    Ravener -- Scything claws & rending talons. 40 pts
    Ravener -- Scything claws & rending talons. 40 pts

    If I drop one of the zoanthropes I could buy nine more spinegaunts or... or something. Thoughts greatly appreciated.

  8. #7
    Senior Member PoptartsNinja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimm View Post

    HQ:

    Tyrant -- Wings, 2x Scything Talons, Warp Field, Adrenaline Glands (WS), Toxin Sacs. 182 pts. I didn't put devourers on him, mostly because I want a mostly charging, in your face, screaming, drooling army.
    Devourer Tyrants do that too, they just front-load the damage by wiping out half the squad before they charge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimm View Post
    Broodlord -- Ex. Carapace, Toxin Sacs, Flesh Hooks. 97 pts
    -- 5x Genestealers, Ex. Carapace. 100 pts I figure the ablative shield needs at least a little armor-plating.
    It can be helpful. I've got no issues here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimm View Post
    Troops:
    Spinegaunts x10 -- no upgrades. 50 pts
    Spinegaunts x9 -- no upgrades. 45 pts
    Spinegaunts x9 -- no upgrades. 45 pts
    Spinegaunts x9 -- no upgrades. 45 pts
    Very small broods for this point-level. I'd drop a brood and take 2 of 12 and 1 of 13. It's generally advantageous to try to stay close to 16 gaunts once you hit the 1500 point level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimm View Post
    Genestealers x6 -- Ex. Carapace. 120 pts
    Genestealers x6 -- Ex. Carapace. 120 pts
    No issues here. Watch out for Tau, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimm View Post
    Elites:
    Carnifex -- Extended Senses, 2x TL Devourers. 113 pts
    Cheap and effective.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimm View Post
    Heavy Support:
    Carnifex -- Enhanced Senses, Reinforced Chitin, Venom Cannon, Barbed Strangler. 163 pts
    Carnifex -- Enhanced Senses, Reinforced Chitin, Venom Cannon, Barbed Strangler. 163 pts
    One of my favorites. It's always hard to choose between Reinforced Chitin and Extended Carapace though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimm View Post
    Zoanthrope -- Synapse Creature. 135 pts
    I assume you're fielding three of these...

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimm View Post
    Fast Attack:
    Ravener -- Scything claws & rending talons. 40 pts
    Ravener -- Scything claws & rending talons. 40 pts
    Ravener -- Scything claws & rending talons. 40 pts
    Three broods of one Ravener. Beautiful. Keep them together and "pretend" they're one unit... they'll draw an inordinate amount of fire if you do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimm View Post
    If I drop one of the zoanthropes I could buy nine more spinegaunts or... or something. Thoughts greatly appreciated.
    That's not a bad idea, but don't discount the advantage of having three semi-durable Synapse creatures floating around. You can never have too much synapse.

    All-in-all, your list is very solid.

  9. #8
    LO Zealot Ironangel256's Avatar
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    I would actually consider dropping a single zoanthrope to get the other thropes another psychic power. Psychic scream or warp blast can work wonders...
    IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT!

    I survived LO Chat thanks to: Karmoon, Rabbit, Process, Tossy and Meish.

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    Thanks for the input again, guys. I completely failed to notice that zoanthropes don't come with Warp Blast. One of them's getting squelched to make room for that. And I get to buy another spinegaunt. Hooray!

    Durr... can't believe I missed that.

  11. #10
    Charitably Tables People MVBrandt's Avatar
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    I am going off your most recent list in this thread. Apologies if any points made that I just didn't notice.





    HQ:

    Tyrant -- Wings, 2x Scything Talons, Warp Field, Adrenaline Glands (WS), Toxin Sacs. 182 pts. I didn't put devourers on him, mostly because I want a mostly charging, in your face, screaming, drooling army.
    Broodlord -- Ex. Carapace, Toxin Sacs, Flesh Hooks. 97 pts
    -- 5x Genestealers, Ex. Carapace. 100 pts I figure the ablative shield needs at least a little armor-plating.
    My $.02 is that if you want fluff, go 2 x scything talons. BUT even for a "charging, in your face, screaming, drooling army" 2 x tl devourers are superior. You do more damage shooting and charging infantry with devourers than just charging with the talons. It's simple math ... 12 shots that hit on 3+, wound on 2 or 3+ against most infantry, and then 4 attacks on the charge vs. just 6 net charging attacks. It's a no brainer, plus you can shoot shit every turn your in range, rather than just meandering about until you're in combat (although admittedly a winged tyrant gets in fast).

    I don't personally like broodlords, but knock yourself out. I also don't like genestealers. I don't think they are at all a value in any list, and that's a personal thing ... I can better use my points on raveners + other things. Since you want to use them, and aren't too interested in min/max, again ... knock yourself out.

    Allow me to strongly urge toxic miasma instead of adrenal (ws) for your tyrant. It is marginally more expensive I think, but it is an overall better investment, and can help other units in melee. Here's why:
    Tyrant w/ Toxic Miasma vs. Space Marine - WS5 vs. WS3, tyrant hits on 3+, marine hits on 4+
    Tyrant w/ Adrenal (WS) vs. Space Marine - WS6 vs. WS4, tyrant hits on 3+, marine hits on 4+

    Tyrant w/ Toxic Miasma vs. anything with weapon skill 3 - WS5 vs. WS2, tyrant hits on 3+, enemy hits on 5+
    Tyrant w/ Adrenal (WS) vs. WS3 anything - WS6 vs. WS3, tyrant hits on 3+, enemy hits on 4+

    Plus, the rule simply states any unit attacking or being attacked by the Tyrant suffers -1 to WS. The way I've always played and redshirted and chatted w/ opponents, this means those lovely spinegaunts in combat against marines now only get hit back on a 4+ if the tyrant is also attacking them and has TM ... b/c now instead of the marines being WS4 against the gaunts 3, it's 3 vs 3, making it harder for marines trying to hold on to "draw" the combat by killing a few gaunts with the non-pfist attacks.

    Troops:
    Spinegaunts x10 -- no upgrades. 50 pts
    Spinegaunts x9 -- no upgrades. 45 pts
    Spinegaunts x9 -- no upgrades. 45 pts
    Spinegaunts x9 -- no upgrades. 45 pts
    Genestealers x6 -- Ex. Carapace. 120 pts
    Genestealers x6 -- Ex. Carapace. 120 pts
    Allow me to encourage you to drop carapace off the stealers, and to drop your spinegaunt squads to squads of 8. Let's face it - 8 are going to suck fire as well as 9 or 10 more or less, and you can savey ourself 40 points that can be spent on things like toxic miasma for your tyrant (ws + tm is sick good, as is toxic miasma alone). Also, genestealers don't really need carapace in close combat ... power weapons ignore it and non-pweapons usually aren't high enough ws or just plain get ganked before they can hit back ... it's probably not worth the 48 points you're paying there. That's 8 more genestealers. If your genestealers are being placed so that they can be shot at ... well, in the world of 40k nine times out of 10 that 4+ armor save isn't going to do you a lot of good ... bolters sure, but usually there are enough bolter shots that your small 6-man squads will take 10 or 12 wounds anyway, so who cares if they get to roll a save when the odds favor most or all dying regardless. Plus, all the ap4 and better weaponry out there just laughs at the free extra points per wound caused. Again, not everyone agrees, but consider it.



    Elites:
    Carnifex -- Extended Senses, 2x TL Devourers. 113 pts
    Yeah these guys are good, though I personally go with 3-model warrior squads with tl devourers on each warrior ... it is better firepower against anything but skimmers and toughness 8 models, and the warriors typically don't draw much fire with the other crap out there ... if they do, they're a cheaper loss by a few points. This is just a personal preference, and b/c in my games I actually try not to field too many monstrous creatures, since that can be considered kinda cheesy.

    Heavy Support:
    Carnifex -- Extended Senses, Reinforced Chitin, Venom Cannon, Barbed Strangler. 163 pts
    Carnifex -- Extended Senses, Reinforced Chitin, Venom Cannon, Barbed Strangler. 163 pts
    Zoanthrope -- Synapse Creature. 135 pts
    I think reinforced chitin is not a valuable expenditure. It also still is just 3 wounds to drop the carni to non-scoring ... it's not like it makes it harder. Yes, you'll take one more wound to die, but youa lso just spent 30 more poins on that. If you take the carapace off all your genestealers (5x4 + 12x4 = 6, the extra spinegaunts out (40), and the chitin off here (30), you've got 138 points to burn ... that's 3 raveners, each fielded as a separate fast attack choice for 3 extremely intimidating, hard to kill (because they are separate units and easy to hide, and can charge 19-24" from behind something), individually scoring units. I won't list all the other things you can do with 138 points that is more valuable than what you currently have those points sunk into (IMO).

    Otherwise it's pretty good ... how on earth do you have a 135 point synapse creature zoanthrope? Is that a typo? One synapse zoe is 45 points. What do you have 3 of them? Warp Blast is a better use, b/c people freak out about it and use shots to kill a rather unimportant, non-scoring unit that will almost assuredly suck more fire than it is worth to kill it. With just synapse, a wise opponent will just ignore it ... it isn't like carnifexes care if they fail synapse tests, and those are the only things in your list that are going to be slow enough to still be affected by zoa synapse after the tyrant is out of range.

    Frankly synapse is the big weakness ... broodlords are tricky to get in b/c of speed, and the tyrant is just 4 lascannon wounds away from gankville. I'd rather see some warriors or even better a 2nd tyrant - walker w/ a guard - instead of the broodlord and retinue. Trick him out w/ the 2 tl devs and use the two tyrants to bracket your army with the most durable synapse possible.

    Fast Attack:
    Ravener -- Scything claws & rending talons. 40 pts
    Ravener -- Scything claws & rending talons. 40 pts
    Ravener -- Scything claws & rending talons. 40 pts
    Sorry you have raveners already, but 2 per squad is what I personally use ... and it is very very effective. Again, good use of that 138 points, plus spend 6 of the remaining 18 on toxic miasma for that tyrant
    Nids & Guard
    GMail = MVBrandt

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