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    1500 tau army- what do you think?

    ive been playing on and off for the last 4 years and have come up with several different posible lists to use. this is one of them, and i found this works pretty well. please let me know what you think and if you have any suggestions to improve it. also if you want to see any of my other possible lists, just let me know

    Tau Army List

    HQ:

    Choice 1A: XV8 Crisis Battlesuit Commander
    Shas'o
    Plasma Riffle
    Missile Pod
    Multi-tracker
    Bonding Knife
    Hard-wired Drone Controller
    1 Shield Drone
    Total = 132

    Choice 1B: XV8 Crisis Battlesuit Bodyguard Team
    2 Shas'vre
    2 Twin-linked Missile Pod
    2 Targeting Array
    1 Hard-wired Drone Controller
    1 Shield Drone
    Total = 141

    HQ Total = 273

    Elites:

    Choice 1: XV8 Crisis Battlesuit Team
    2 Shas'ui
    2 Twin-linked Missile Pod
    1 Shas'ui Team Leader
    1 Fusion Blaster
    1 Missile Pod
    3 Targeting Array
    1 Hard-wired Multi-tracker
    1 Bonding Knife
    1 Hard-wired Drone Controller
    1 Shield Drone
    Total = 195

    Choice 2: XV8 Crisis Battlesuit Team
    2 Shas'ui
    2 Twin-linked Missile Pod
    1 Shas'ui Team Leader
    1 Fusion Blaster
    1 Missile Pod
    3 Targeting Array
    1 Hard-wired Multi-tracker
    1 Bonding Knife
    1 Hard-wired Drone Controller
    1 Shield Drone
    Total = 195

    Choice 3: XV8 Crisis Battlesuit Team
    2 Shas'ui
    2 Twin-linked Missile Pod
    1 Shas'ui Team Leader
    1 Fusion Blaster
    1 Missile Pod
    3 Targeting Array
    1 Hard-wired Multi-tracker
    1 Bonding Knife
    1 Hard-wired Drone Controller
    1 Shield Drone
    Total = 195

    Elites Total = 585

    Troops:

    Choice 1: Fire Warrior Team
    6 Shas' la (Pulse Riffle)
    Total = 60

    Choice 2: Fire Warrior Team
    6 Shas' la (Pulse Riffle)
    Total = 60

    Choice 3: Fire Warrior Team
    6 Shas' la (Pulse Riffle)
    Total = 60

    Choice 4: Fire Warrior Team
    6 Shas' la (Pulse Riffle)
    Total = 60

    Choice 5: Fire Warrior Team
    6 Shas' la (Pulse Riffle)
    Total = 60

    Troops Total = 300

    Heavy Support:

    Choice 1: XV88 Broadside Battlesuit Team
    1 Shas'ui
    1 Shas'vre
    2 Multi-tracker
    1 Hard-wired Drone Controller
    1 Shield Drone
    Total = 170

    Choice 2: XV88 Broadside Battlesuit Team
    1 Shas'ui
    1 Shas'vre
    2 Multi-tracker
    1 Hard-wired Drone Controller
    1 Shield Drone
    Total = 170

    Heavy Support Total = 340

    Army Total = 1498

    Last edited by saxman; October 25th, 2008 at 06:06.

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  3. #2
    The deep down truth Rikimaru's Avatar
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    724 (x8)

    Quote Originally Posted by saxman View Post
    ive been playing on and off for the last 4 years and have come up with several different posible lists to use. this is one of them, and i found this works pretty well. please let me know what you think and if you have any suggestions to improve it. also if you want to see any of my other possible lists, just let me know

    Tau Army List

    HQ:

    Choice 1A: XV8 Crisis Battlesuit Commander
    Shas'o
    Plasma Riffle
    Missile Pod
    Multi-tracker
    Bonding Knife
    Hard-wired Drone Controller
    1 Shield Drone
    Total = 132

    Choice 1B: XV8 Crisis Battlesuit Bodyguard Team
    2 Shas'vre
    2 Twin-linked Missile Pod
    2 Targeting Array
    1 Hard-wired Drone Controller
    1 Shield Drone
    Total = 141
    First why a Shas'O? The suit is obviously set up for ranged fire so you have no need to take an O. Take an EL with TA and HW multi and save some points. The unit seems to be giving mixed signals, you have an HQ with Plasma and two Vre's with twin linked MP's, the Vre's seem to indicate you are going to stay at range and use the MP's yet the O seems to be set up for getting closer with the Plasma. You need to decide what you want your team to do, personally I would gos all Plasma, MP, TA and HW multi and have a team that can deal with pretty much anything. I am not overly keen on HQ/BG teams because they make a very tempting target and this is a big unit. I would rather go for two HQ Shas'Els and have them running around the field hiding and taking shots, they can join other units and they are much easier to keep alive (just a thought for you to consider) also you are only one suit down and the points saved can be invested elsewhere. Shield Drones, I am not a fan! they count towards casualties and if enough wounds are caused you still end up giving a suit a wound.

    Quote Originally Posted by saxman View Post

    Elites:

    Choice 1: XV8 Crisis Battlesuit Team
    2 Shas'ui
    2 Twin-linked Missile Pod
    1 Shas'ui Team Leader
    1 Fusion Blaster
    1 Missile Pod
    3 Targeting Array
    1 Hard-wired Multi-tracker
    1 Bonding Knife
    1 Hard-wired Drone Controller
    1 Shield Drone
    Total = 195

    Choice 2: XV8 Crisis Battlesuit Team
    2 Shas'ui
    2 Twin-linked Missile Pod
    1 Shas'ui Team Leader
    1 Fusion Blaster
    1 Missile Pod
    3 Targeting Array
    1 Hard-wired Multi-tracker
    1 Bonding Knife
    1 Hard-wired Drone Controller
    1 Shield Drone
    Total = 195

    Choice 3: XV8 Crisis Battlesuit Team
    2 Shas'ui
    2 Twin-linked Missile Pod
    1 Shas'ui Team Leader
    1 Fusion Blaster
    1 Missile Pod
    3 Targeting Array
    1 Hard-wired Multi-tracker
    1 Bonding Knife
    1 Hard-wired Drone Controller
    1 Shield Drone
    Total = 195

    Elites Total = 585
    Wow that is a lot of points invested in crisis suits. I have found that crisis heavy lists rarely work that well. These units are really geared towards armour killing with a little bit of anti MEQ, again they are confused in regards to their role. I always find it is best to make XV8 units specific in their designated role. I would lose one team for a start and make each team dedicated to a role.
    I would go this way:
    Deathrain team:
    1 x team leader with TL MP, TA and HW
    2 x XV8 TL MP, TA
    Nice simple effective unit, kept at extreme range o should have no need of Shield Drones. Much cheaper and can target two units a turn.

    Fire Knife team:
    1 X team leader with MP, PL, TA, HW multi, HW TL, HW Drone Cont and Marker light Drone
    2 x XV8 with MP, PL, Multi
    this team is geared for taking down tough units and armour, the Drone allows the unit to benefit from various ML benefits, notably +1 to BS. All the suits can fire all their weapons. Again no Shield Drone as I think it is basically expense that is not needed and will offer very little protection but will make it easier for the team to fall back (bonding knife is a possible if your happier with them)

    Now that is it for the XV8's because basically you will not need any more than this. With the points saved a few other units come to mind. Stealth's are very good you can take a vanilla 6 man unit for 180pts and this will definitely give you something you lack 'anti infantry' your list is exceptionally poorly equipped to deal with infantry heavy/hoard type list and this needs addressing. The Stealth's allow you to infiltrate or outflank, they are very good anti infantry and they will give your opponent something else to worry about.
    The second choice is Pathfinders, you have no Marker light support at all and you have no mobility with your troops. You can solve these problems with a PF unit. Take a full unit and use the Devil fish to transport a unit of Fire Warriors. The ML's will also help the FW units to perform better. Personally I would go for the Stealth's as you do have accurate XV8 and XV88 units
    Troops:

    Quote Originally Posted by saxman View Post
    Choice 1: Fire Warrior Team
    6 Shas' la (Pulse Riffle)
    Total = 60

    Choice 2: Fire Warrior Team
    6 Shas' la (Pulse Riffle)
    Total = 60

    Choice 3: Fire Warrior Team
    6 Shas' la (Pulse Riffle)
    Total = 60

    Choice 4: Fire Warrior Team
    6 Shas' la (Pulse Riffle)
    Total = 60

    Choice 5: Fire Warrior Team
    6 Shas' la (Pulse Riffle)
    Total = 60

    Troops Total = 300
    These are a bad choice! small 6 man units that are static, eeeesh these are a recipe for disaster. They have little to no ablative wounds, all it takes is two dead and the units are falling back and they will probably stay falling back. They have very little chance of hurting anything that gets close enough to prevent them from getting assaulted or shot to pieces by return fire. You need to have at least one of these units in a Devilfish and make three 10 man units. This will make sure that each team has sufficient fire power and make them more resilient to damage. Make sure you put the static FW units in cover.

    Quote Originally Posted by saxman View Post

    Heavy Support:

    Choice 1: XV88 Broadside Battlesuit Team
    1 Shas'ui
    1 Shas'vre
    2 Multi-tracker
    1 Hard-wired Drone Controller
    1 Shield Drone
    Total = 170

    Choice 2: XV88 Broadside Battlesuit Team
    1 Shas'ui
    1 Shas'vre
    2 Multi-tracker
    1 Hard-wired Drone Controller
    1 Shield Drone
    Total = 170

    Heavy Support Total = 340

    Army Total = 1498
    Why multi's? If any unit is close enough to get hit by the SMS then your in trouble anyway. These need the A'S'S other than that they are OK. Personally I would go for one team and take a Hemmerhead with railgun because the HH will offer you some much needed anti infantry capability. You have overkill on the anti armour so I would definitely advise taking a HH.

    So I would take

    HQ

    Shas'El

    MP, PL (or Fusion depending on preference), TA and HW TL 97pts

    MP, PL (or Fusion depending on preference), TA and HW TL 97pts

    Elites

    1 x Deathrain team leader with TL MP, TA and HW TL 63pts
    2 x XV8 TL MP and TA 106pts
    total 169pts

    1 x Fireknife team leader with MP, PL, TA, HW DC and ML Drone, HW TL, HW multi 112pts
    2 X XV8 with MP, PL and HW Multi 124pts
    Total = 256pts (expensive unit but flexible and hard hitting, just use carefully)

    Stealth team
    6 x Stealth's 180pts

    Troops

    3 x 10 Fire Warriors with Ui upgrade 330pts

    Heavy

    Choice 1: XV88 Broadside Battlesuit Team
    1 Shas'ui
    1 Shas'vre
    2 A'S'S
    1 Hard-wired Drone Controller
    1 Shield Drone
    Total = 180

    Hammerhead with RG, BC, Multi and Decoys 165pts

    Now I avoided a Devilfish to stay close to your model list and the list totals 1474. If you wanted some mobility then you cold lose an HQ suit (which would not be that much of an impact) and would also allow you to take a Devilfish and spend a few more points esewhere. The points cost may be slightly out as I am at work and doing this from memory. I have given the list purely as an example but you do need to balance whatever list you are using to deal with all aspects of an opponents list. As it stands you have very poor infantry capability, overkill on XV8 armour killing and very limited mobility in your troops and heavy slots. The list and comments are there to give you some ideas and clues as to sorting these deficiencies out. Hope that helped some.
    1984

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    First off while i respect your opinion, i disagree with most of your opinions.


    For the HQ, the reason i took the shas'o is because i think he's worth it. you get the extra leadership and extra wound. the reason i gave him a plasma is that its a higher strength weapon and although the missile pods are ranged weapons they have the best chance of hitting and wounding out of all the weapons and that's why i chose them not because there ranged and the way I've been using my suits, they get in pretty close to be able to fire even the weapons that don't have as great a range as the missile pod such as the plasma and them jump back after they've shot so having a plasma is good because it gives my commander a better chance at getting a wound or a kill. the body guards only have missile pods because they already have less of a chance of causing wounds so i made them twin linked and gave them the targeting array to make their shots more likely to hit. the main reason i chose not to take 2 commanders and take body guards instead is that you get to take more suits and if you have a commander join a unit that makes it so you cant target as many units because he has to shoot at the same target as the rest of the unit, where as you could target more units if you keep them separate and give the commander body guards. as for the bodyguards,they're not a tempting unit to shoot at more than any other unit of xv8's, It's not a bigger unit than any other unit of xv8's, and they don't make it harder to keep alive, they actually give it a better chance. also, while the shield drones count toward casualties, they're extremely useful when being shot at by high strength, instant death weapons such as lascannons because they give you a 4+ save where as they would instantly die, and there not very expensive.

    for the elites, I've found that a lot of suits do very well in most situations. they're highly mobile there able to take on a bit of fire without hurting too much and if i may say so are pretty bad ass. i don't think their confused about their role. i gave the leader the fusion so that if he needs it he can use it to take out higher armoured units/vehicles, but gave him a missile pod as well and gave the rest of the squad missile pods so that i could maximize their effectiveness as to not make an entire squad useless in one respect, also giving them only missile pods means i could give them a targeting array to increase their chances of hitting their target without taking away from the amount of shots they could make. with regards to marker drones, i don't like them at all when it comes to squads that are specifically meant for high mobility because markerlights are heavy and cant be fired if the squad moves and they have a poor chance of hitting, and even if they do hit they can only be used once which isn't very useful or effective. plus marker drones are twice as expensive as shield drones and are not even near as effective. with regard to the stealth suits i actually tend to agree with you. a stealth suit team might work, but that's something i don't want to get into. also in regards to the pathfinder team, i have found that these are not as effective as you'd think unless used in the exact right way. first off, when it comes to the marker lights, while you can have potentially 8 of them their poor BS skill means that only 50% of them would hit on average, that's OK but not great and in my opinion not worth the points, and i believe that when it comes to markerlights, its all or nothing, by which i mean that either every unit has as many as possible (which can be expensive) or have none at all. secondly the pathfinders must take a devilfish. i find this to be bad because their would be only one vehicle, a very tempting target with poor to moderate defenses depending on whats shooting at it. so basically the devilfish becomes a useless thing to take if your only going to have one vehicle.

    with the troops, i chose to have a more small units than less bigger units because of a few reasons. first, having many units forces your opponent to break up his shooting because there are more units to shoot at. second although they have a better chance of falling back because they are so small it doesn't mean they will. and thirdly, most likely they wont be a main target in the first place because your opponent will be more preoccupied and scared of the mass amounts of xv8's and the high firepower of the xv88's. plus they will most likely be in cover for most of the time, and they have a great range with their rifles so that's gives them pretty good odds of surviving. and like i said before about the devilfish, its just not worth it to take one if its the only vehicle.

    for the broad sides i personally don't see the need for ASS's. if you just put them at the back of your army, maybe on a hill or in some kind of cover that allows them to see over the battlefield and don't move them they'll be fine. their railguns have great range and so they have no need to move because their will be closer and more important targets to shoot at ( the xv8's) they'll be out of range of most things anyways, and they're pretty tough units that can stand up to most things. with that said giving them the multi trackers is a better option because while you'd like to think nothing would get close enough for them to be in range, things do get in range and it will become useful if you're able to shoot both weapons. for the hammerhead, like i said about the devilfish, if there's only one vehicle its going to be a high priority target, which is more true for the hammerhead because it has such a high strength weapon. also that's about its only use is its railgun because its other weapon is either the burst cannon which has a short range and cant be fired if the railgun is fired and the tank moved, or the gun drone or missile pod which are more expensive and the same thing can be said about them as the burst cannon that it cant be fired if the tank moves and shoots its railgun so in my opinion, unless your taking 3 hammerheads then don't take any.

    so to sum up, in comparison to the list you advised at the bottom, you've made the HQ less effective by taking away a suit and making the commanders have less defenses, you've left the elites almost the same except that they also have less defenses, you've left the troops almost the same except that you consolidated the amount of units and made them more expensive by giving them shas'ui's that they don't need, and you made the heavy support worse by taking away their defenses, taking away their amount of shots, and by making one choice a huge target for disaster. so in my opinion for saving only 46 points (you made a mistake on the second xv8 team, its 236 not 256 points) you made the entire list less effective at hurting the enemy and more susceptible to being destroyed. you need lots of mobile xv8 suits because they are strong units that can deliver lots of good strength shots and can move out of the way before they get hurt or killed, you don't need your heavy units to be mobile because they have good range and are tough units with high strength shots, and since most troops are not very mobile anyway there's not much that you really need to do to make them mobile especially since fire warriors aren't that tough so you don't want them to be on the front lines, plus the only way to make them mobile is by putting them in a devilfish which means for a turn they can't fire so it makes them a useless unit especially if that devilfish is shot down.

    this is just a thought for you.

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    I found there wasn't much wrong about his old list, definetly not with his troop choice choice, however i should equip the the suit teams for each their on purpose for the xv88's i wouldn't give them A'S'S or a multi -tracker because a SMS and the railgun arent really for the same kind of target, maybe with plasma rifles i would give them MT's

    but i'm just a beginning tau player

  6. #5
    The deep down truth Rikimaru's Avatar
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    724 (x8)

    Quote Originally Posted by saxman View Post
    First off while i respect your opinion, i disagree with most of your opinions.
    Fine you are entitled to disagree


    Quote Originally Posted by saxman View Post
    For the HQ, the reason i took the shas'o is because i think he's worth it. you get the extra leadership and extra wound.
    If you know how to use an HQ Xv8 then you should never need the extra wound and the LDS is pretty much never a problem, I have never found the LDS a problem on Shas'Els (ever). If you want to waste 25pts then go for it.



    Quote Originally Posted by saxman View Post
    the reason i gave him a plasma is that its a higher strength weapon and although the missile pods are ranged weapons they have the best chance of hitting and wounding out of all the weapons and that's why i chose them not because there ranged and the way I've been using my suits, they get in pretty close to be able to fire even the weapons that don't have as great a range as the missile pod such as the plasma and them jump back after they've shot so having a plasma is good because it gives my commander a better chance at getting a wound or a kill. the body guards only have missile pods because they already have less of a chance of causing wounds so i made them twin linked and gave them the targeting array to make their shots more likely to hit.
    If you gave the BG Plasma and MP with TA and HW multi then you have a much more effective unit. The BG are hitting on 3+ (not bad) but the Plasma is going to be much more effective against more unit types (MEQ's, MC's, tough targets) then a MP alone. If you are using this unit close and are not staying at range (a la Deathrains) then you should be giving this unit every possible means of causing casualties and avoiding save taking by the target unit. Think about it if you hit with two MP shots the target will more than likely get a save, if you hit them with two MP shots and two Plasma shots per suit then the target is going be losing more casualties per hit than with just MP hits. Ok the unit is more expensive but it does a better job. Twin linked MP belong on Deathrains that operate at range not on close range units.
    Also the new LOS rules mean large units are more vulnerable, if you can hit one member of the team then all must be allocated wounds, irrespective of range or LOS of the other members of the unit. This is why I tend to avoid large XV8 units (I only advised them in the example list because I try to accomadate the posters exisiting models).

    Quote Originally Posted by saxman View Post
    the main reason i chose not to take 2 commanders and take body guards instead is that you get to take more suits and if you have a commander join a unit that makes it so you cant target as many units because he has to shoot at the same target as the rest of the unit, where as you could target more units if you keep them separate and give the commander body guards.
    as for the bodyguards,they're not a tempting unit to shoot at more than any other unit of xv8's, It's not a bigger unit than any other unit of xv8's, and they don't make it harder to keep alive, they actually give it a better chance. also, while the shield drones count toward casualties, they're extremely useful when being shot at by high strength, instant death weapons such as lascannons because they give you a 4+ save where as they would instantly die, and there not very expensive.
    You have to many suits period, 5th is a lot more infantry based and the run rule means XV8's can be chased down pretty fast. The point of taking two commanders is not to join other units but to have them operating Monat; this allows them to be much more survivable by virtue of the easier utilisation of terrain. Also the simple inclusion of a target lock negates your argument about shooting other targets when joining other units.
    I am not sure how you or your opponents play the game but an expensive HQ and BG unit will be targeted and chased down fast. You get two kill points for the unit and the fact is that the unit has the best BS of the army, which means they are good at causing damage so they are a priority target to anyone who knows what they are doing. Also any opponent will want to at least tie up this unit and prevent it from shooting by getting into CC with it. The good thing about Monat HQ XV8's is if the opponent hits one then you lose one, if the opponent catches one in CC the other is still out there causing damage.
    Shield Drones are Ok however I usually find that if I lose XV8's it is down to small arms infantry fire and not things like Lascannons and the Drones do not help that much with the new wound allocation rules. I would rather spend the points elsewhere and use hard to target lone HQ. I suppose it comes down to how you use the HQ I find lone Shas'Els are much easier to keep alive than large units.

    Quote Originally Posted by saxman View Post
    for the elites, I've found that a lot of suits do very well in most situations. they're highly mobile there able to take on a bit of fire without hurting too much and if i may say so are pretty bad ass.
    You have to many XV8's for 1500pts. In 2000pts you can get away with that many (just) but you have a very unbalanced list, it is very much geared towards anti armour, if you faced a fast infantry list, drop pod orientated list or hoard type list then you simply do not have enough massed firepower to hurt list with large numbers of models. Also the XV8's are mobile but they are also large targets and you have a lot of large target units. This makes it nigh on impossible to prevent LOS to at least a percentage of the XV8 units. XV8's are only Marines with an extra wound and they have one problem 'small unit size' the rules make it hard to avoid losing suits (you cannot spread wounds and the new rules mean different modles take their own saves), you lose one you are checking for fall back. If you like suit heavy then go for it, I simply find suit heavy lists to vulnerable


    Quote Originally Posted by saxman View Post
    i don't think their confused about their role. i gave the leader the fusion so that if he needs it he can use it to take out higher armoured units/vehicles, but gave him a missile pod as well and gave the rest of the squad missile pods so that i could maximize their effectiveness as to not make an entire squad useless in one respect, also giving them only missile pods means i could give them a targeting array to increase their chances of hitting their target without taking away from the amount of shots they could make.
    However you have given the leader a weapon he probably will not use that much. It is much better to give a suit a role and make sure it performs to the maximum in that role. The Deathrain TA suits are fine but they are not close range suits so you should never need the Fusion because you will not be close enough to use it. Suits with TL MP's should be used at max range because this allows you to get full effect from them for longer. The Fusion is not needed if you play Deathrains how they should be played.
    Quote Originally Posted by saxman View Post
    with regards to marker drones, i don't like them at all when it comes to squads that are specifically meant for high mobility because markerlights are heavy and cant be fired if the squad moves and they have a poor chance of hitting, and even if they do hit they can only be used once which isn't very useful or effective. plus marker drones are twice as expensive as shield drones and are not even near as effective.
    Ok 1st things 1st, Marker Drones when taken with XV's are relentless and thus can move and shoot (check the rules). Also if you take an ML Drone on a Fire knife unit it allows the taking of Multis which allows the firing of all the weapons. The ML Drone means you have a 50% chance of a +1 to BS each turn, thus even if you miss with the Drone you get all the shots, if you hit you get all the shots at +1 to BS. I have no idea what you mean by they can only be used once, you get to fire ML Drones every turn and +1 to BS is very effective. ML Drones are twice as expensive for a reason, they make the unit more effective and anyway they have totaly different uses. I know I would rather be stood in front of a target unit with +1 BS and lots of Plasma than with MP's and a Shield Drone.


    Quote Originally Posted by saxman View Post
    with regard to the stealth suits i actually tend to agree with you. a stealth suit team might work, but that's something i don't want to get into
    You should give them more consideration as they will help balance your list and give you some much needed anti infantry.

    Quote Originally Posted by saxman View Post
    also in regards to the pathfinder team, i have found that these are not as effective as you'd think unless used in the exact right way. first off, when it comes to the marker lights, while you can have potentially 8 of them their poor BS skill means that only 50% of them would hit on average, that's OK but not great and in my opinion not worth the points, and i believe that when it comes to markerlights, its all or nothing, by which i mean that either every unit has as many as possible (which can be expensive) or have none at all. secondly the pathfinders must take a devilfish. i find this to be bad because their would be only one vehicle, a very tempting target with poor to moderate defenses depending on whats shooting at it. so basically the devilfish becomes a useless thing to take if your only going to have one vehicle.
    4 ML hits means better BS for a unit and reduced cover saves for a targeted unit. Hardly a waste. The Devilfish with decoys is not useless far from it, the fact that you have some mobility for a Fire Warrior unit means you have a more versatile list and offers more scope for using the battlefield. However its your choice and if you want no ML's then fine, I think your list will suffer as a result though.

    Quote Originally Posted by saxman View Post
    with the troops, i chose to have a more small units than less bigger units because of a few reasons. first, having many units forces your opponent to break up his shooting because there are more units to shoot at. second although they have a better chance of falling back because they are so small it doesn't mean they will. and thirdly, most likely they wont be a main target in the first place because your opponent will be more preoccupied and scared of the mass amounts of xv8's and the high firepower of the xv88's. plus they will most likely be in cover for most of the time, and they have a great range with their rifles so that's gives them pretty good odds of surviving. and like i said before about the devilfish, its just not worth it to take one if its the only vehicle.
    Have you played 5th yet? Troops are the only things that can hold objectives so in most games they will not be able to just hide in cover. You need to have some mobile hardy troops and this is where the greater unit size and Devilfish come into it. Having a unit in a vehicle (that is tough to kill due to DP's) and is mobile enough to get to objectives is worth its weight in gold in 5th. Your comment about not falling back is a bit strange, if a unit is smaller it means they have less casualty absorbtion and therfore will take tests quicker, surely it is better to have units that do not have to take the test for longer and have more firepower to put out for longer?. If what you say about the numerous XV8 units being such a distraction is true then why would this not apply to a lone non threatning Devilfifish?

    Quote Originally Posted by saxman View Post
    for the broad sides i personally don't see the need for ASS's. if you just put them at the back of your army, maybe on a hill or in some kind of cover that allows them to see over the battlefield and don't move them they'll be fine. their railguns have great range and so they have no need to move because their will be closer and more important targets to shoot at ( the xv8's) they'll be out of range of most things anyways, and they're pretty tough units that can stand up to most things. with that said giving them the multi trackers is a better option because while you'd like to think nothing would get close enough for them to be in range, things do get in range and it will become useful if you're able to shoot both weapons.
    The point of A'S'S is to allow some ability to gain LOS, most opponents know how dangerous an XV88 can be and will utilise cover or blocked LOS as much as possible. If you have no mobility then you can do nothing about this. Being able to gain LOS or to even avoid a unit gaining LOS on the XV88. Also if the XV88 is going to be 'out of range of most things' why spend points on a multi? It is better to spend points on equipment that will allow the XV88 to carry out its shooting role as quickly as possible and as effectively as possible BEFORE anything gets close. If it destroys tanks etc quickly then it has done its job.


    Quote Originally Posted by saxman View Post
    for the hammerhead, like i said about the devilfish, if there's only one vehicle its going to be a high priority target, which is more true for the hammerhead because it has such a high strength weapon. also that's about its only use is its railgun because its other weapon is either the burst cannon which has a short range and cant be fired if the railgun is fired and the tank moved, or the gun drone or missile pod which are more expensive and the same thing can be said about them as the burst cannon that it cant be fired if the tank moves and shoots its railgun so in my opinion, unless your taking 3 hammerheads then don't take any.
    The Railgun is why you take it, you should never be in a position to use BC's anyway. The subs option is awesome and again would help with your lack of anti infantry. With DP's and multi it is very hard to stop a Hammerhead. THe HH has the same advantage an XV88 has 'massive range' but it also has mobility, good AV and Disruptions offering a cover save

    Quote Originally Posted by saxman View Post
    so to sum up, in comparison to the list you advised at the bottom, you've made the HQ less effective by taking away a suit and making the commanders have less defenses
    Utterly untrue, the commanders are in fact a lot more effective. They are easier to hide, they are separate units which makes them less vulnerable. They are easier to get into position because they can utilise cover more effectively which means they hurt more targets and like I said earlier the new rules make it quite dangerous to take large units of XV8's.

    Quote Originally Posted by saxman View Post
    you've left the elites almost the same except that they also have less defenses
    Again untrue because the Deathrains will be operating at maximum distance and the Fireknife squad is more effective at shooting (which means less return fire). It all has to do with how you use the units and if played properly the units will have a better chance of surviving then the ones you are taking, purely because you have decided on weapons unsuitable for closer range engagements.

    Quote Originally Posted by saxman View Post
    you've left the troops almost the same except that you consolidated the amount of units and made them more expensive by giving them shas'ui's that they don't need.
    Again untrue, the units will be around longer, absorb more casualties and put out more concentrated firepower. You can still use cover with larger units and anyway the list I posted while better is not ideal. I would advise FW's in Devilfish and Kroot over 6 small units of FW or three static 10 man squads. However you seem deadset against Devilfish so the three 10 man squads are the only way to go to improve the situation. The Ui is there for the extra LDS which you will need with static FW teams.
    Quote Originally Posted by saxman View Post
    and you made the heavy support worse by taking away their defenses, taking away their amount of shots, and by making one choice a huge target for disaster.
    Errrr no, the XV88 squad is the same only without the multi, it still has a Drone and the A'S'S will make them more effective by allowing them to destroy things quicker. You do not need a multi because if a unit is close then two railgun shots is not going to make much of a difference, in fact if a unit is close then the XV88 unit is screwed anyway. The HH is not a large target for disaster, the HH is so popular for a reason because it is damned good. If you use it intelligently you will have no problem keeping it in one piece. Also having a HH means the threat index of the XV88 goes down which makes it more survivable

    Quote Originally Posted by saxman View Post
    so in my opinion for saving only 46 points (you made a mistake on the second xv8 team, its 236 not 256 points)
    I did say I was at work and the points may be out and anyway you get 20pts back.

    Quote Originally Posted by saxman View Post
    You made the entire list less effective at hurting the enemy and more susceptible to being destroyed.
    Absolutely not true. The list is actually much better at hurting the enemy and a lot more balanced against more list types. You have a more effective Fireknife squad that can dish out much more harm, a more effective Deathrain squad that can stay out of harms way and hit two units a turn, a Hammerhead that can hurt armour or infantry, a Stealth squad that can infiltrate and deal out lots of damage to infantry (which shold be your primary target in 5th), FW units that can hurt units more effectively and you have an XV88 unit that can move to gain LOS and thus is more effective and is more survivable because the HH is seen as more of a threat. The HQ are more survivable and can get to targets easier making them more effective.

    Quote Originally Posted by saxman View Post
    you need lots of mobile xv8 suits because they are strong units that can deliver lots of good strength shots and can move out of the way before they get hurt or killed,
    The list I posted has this and the units I listed if used correctly are more survivable and will do more damage. They are focused and the Fireknife unit is very hard hitting which means less return fire.

    Quote Originally Posted by saxman View Post
    you don't need your heavy units to be mobile because they have good range and are tough units with high strength shots, and since most troops are not very mobile anyway there's not much that you really need to do to make them mobile.
    Rubbish! you have seen the new rules I take it, troops can run, vehicles are harder to damage. What about all the fast assault troops out there?. Anyway the mobility of the XV88 is not to avoid units but to make them more effective at aquiring targets. The HH is tough and mobile anyway.


    Quote Originally Posted by saxman View Post
    especially since fire warriors aren't that tough so you don't want them to be on the front lines, plus the only way to make them mobile is by putting them in a devilfish which means for a turn they can't fire so it makes them a useless unit especially if that devilfish is shot down.
    If FW's are not tough then why have them in small vulnerable groups?. Having them in DF offers protection even when they disembark it offers a cover save. Also why can they not shoot for a turn? FW units in DF are possibly the most widely used and successful unit in the Tau armoury.

    Quote Originally Posted by saxman View Post
    this is just a thought for you.
    I have been playing Tau since day one constantly and I know what works. The example list I posted was aimed at your playstyle and model count, it is far from ideal and is not one I would personally use. I would think about what I have said and start to think more about how 5th works, especially in regards to troop usage and true LOS against those over numerous large XV8 squads. I offered help and advice if you do not want to consider it then that is OK but please do not imply that I made the list worse (I certainly dod not do that even though the list I supplied is far from ideal). There is much more to Tau list building than simply throwing massed XV8's at the opponent (in fact this is one of the less advantages ways of using Tau).
    Last edited by Rikimaru; October 27th, 2008 at 19:21.
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