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  1. #1
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    Evasive mech army 1250

    Still trying to adapt my old Ulthwe forces. Focusing more on vehicles to be able to avoid (to a degree) assaults, and letting the vypers have another try at the board, if I can shave points somewhere.

    Also part of me doesn't like the weapon loadouts. Though I only have so many options. I need some weapon sprues.

    Farseer, runes of warding, fortune, spear

    10 scorps exarc , claw, biting blade, stalker
    waveserpent, stone, scatters

    TROOPS

    10x gaurdians scatter laser
    waveserpent BL

    10 guardians EML
    Waveserpent BL

    5 DA (ride in the falcon to make it scoring or can shoot some)


    Heavy

    Falcon, EML, holo, stones

    2x D-cannon

    20 points left over


    General tactic is to play an evasive game. The D-cannons set up a little ways in. Ideally threatening some objective(s).

    Initially I'll probably fight somewhat like a gunline. Using fortune on skimmers to get a reroll on their cover save. Will often also use skimmers to block LOS to other skimmers if need be or at least give them their own cover saves. Eventually the enemy will draw in close. At which point the D-cannon opens up and the rest of my force starts trying to shift away somewhere else to avoid CC and nasty 12" weaponry.


    Questions include suggestions in general. What to do with the 20 left over points. What, if anything, to change in regards to powers etc that I can alter just by saying so.

    Also suggestions on reserves. I'm really split on them. On one hand it is nice having all my stuff around to open up in the beginning, and drawing the enemy into D-cannon range can make a huge difference. But reserves could be good too, especially if the enemy is also using them.

    Also


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  3. #2
    Senior Member cheart's Avatar
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    Just have two questions:

    1) What do you have to prevent someone from focussing on killing your D-cannons first? The artillery has 4 T3 Sv5+ wounds, if it looses 3 it looses a D-cannon. That could be one round of 5 terminators shooting at it to disable it.

    2) What do you have to counter an army that can sit back and shoot at you? (although armies like this are probably rare now-adays)

    Overall your list still bugs me, I think it really lacks the ability to go out and kill things and relies too heavily in your drawing in to the D-cannon tactic. I think most armies would have a counter for this, if they figure out how to take out the D-cannons before they can open fire what do you have to kill off their numbers?

    I think your army would fair well in capture and control, I don't think it would fair well in kill points missions or the single objectives missions. What would you have to contest enemy objectives other than the striking scorpions?

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    Quote Originally Posted by cheart View Post
    Just have two questions:

    1) What do you have to prevent someone from focussing on killing your D-cannons first? The artillery has 4 T3 Sv5+ wounds, if it looses 3 it looses a D-cannon. That could be one round of 5 terminators shooting at it to disable it.
    First, in case you don't know the rules, shooting at artillary is a bit odd. Shots are distributed at random between the AV10 guns and crew, and they're more likely to hit the guns. Which makes them surprisingly resiliant to bolter rounds.

    Beyond that they're either hidden out of LOS of most of the enemy or in cover, depending on the board. And usually closer to the back edge where it's at least risky to deepstrike termies.

    Beyond that sometimes you just have to take the shots. I mean deepstriking termies could instead be shooting the rear armor of a loaded waveserpent or something.

    I do however expect the enemy to be charging at the D-cannons. Either in an attempt to kill my other units or get close to objectives. And if they're a powerful rushing army I may well have to abandon the things.

    However they have a habit of making their points back in a short period of time.


    2) What do you have to counter an army that can sit back and shoot at you? (although armies like this are probably rare now-adays)
    The rarity is part of it. Since 2/3rds of the time victory depends only on objectives, even Tau and Guard are having to rush forward in transports at some point.

    Up against them the scorps are going to take center stage. Fortune from the seer makes them really tough to take down with stuff that isn't AP 3 2 or 1.


    What would you have to contest enemy objectives other than the striking scorpions?
    Three serpents and a falcon. Possibly with a re-rollable cover save from going flat out.

    Kill points can be more of a concern.

    Still remember this is only a 1250 point army. There likely aren't going to be that many bodies on the board.

    What would you think would drastically increase my killing potential?

    Well, OK, there are much deadlier units I could take against a lightly armored hoard force. But againt the popular mounted MEQs I'm not so sure.

  5. #4
    Senior Member cheart's Avatar
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    First, in case you don't know the rules, shooting at artillary is a bit odd. Shots are distributed at random between the AV10 guns and crew, and they're more likely to hit the guns. Which makes them surprisingly resiliant to bolter rounds.
    Okay, I looked at the rules, and thats true, but theres also the part in which you only need a glancing hit on the artillary and it automatically dies... so any 6's to wound the guns from bolters would blow them up given that they don't make their cover save. Which means I guess that if bolter rounds are shooting at you yes, you would be probably be pretty safe.

    Beyond that sometimes you just have to take the shots. I mean deepstriking termies could instead be shooting the rear armor of a loaded waveserpent or something.
    They could, but it seems like your D-cannons are the cornerstone of your defensive strategy, if they're gone what do you have to prevent your enemy from dominating your deployment area and making your guardians mount up for the rest of the game?

    The rarity is part of it. Since 2/3rds of the time victory depends only on objectives, even Tau and Guard are having to rush forward in transports at some point.
    Yes this is true. However, they might get a good 2 or 3 turns of shooting off at you before hand, and I don't think your army could match the punishment they'd deal out in these turns.

    Up against them the scorps are going to take center stage. Fortune from the seer makes them really tough to take down with stuff that isn't AP 3 2 or 1.
    Due to the popularity of MEQs, most armies (aside from eldar it seems =P) have low AP weapons aplenty. However you could probably zoom 24" first turn at whatever you wanted, deploy behind the waveserpent second turn getting at least a re-rollable cover save (if not complete blocking of LOS), then assault on turn 3 so you'd be okay there. Still though, that means, if you want to be safe, you have to wait till turn 3 before you could go out and start bashing things.

    Three serpents and a falcon. Possibly with a re-rollable cover save from going flat out.
    But aren't your waveserpents for the guardians going to be somewhere far away from the bulk of their army, which probably means far away from their objective? Also, if your scorpion carrying waveserpent is going to dive into the heart of their army, its probably going to be target priority #1 and not survive to see the end of the battle.

    That leaves your falcon, and I like how its kitted out with holofields, shouldn't be too easy to take out then. And its not really carrying a threat at all so should be too high a priority.

  6. #5
    Senior Member Rattrap's Avatar
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    As much as I like scorpions, I think running a fully kitted squad at 1250 may be a bit much. That said, I'm not sure where exactly you would spend it.

    Just looking at this list: I don't think you're going to have the OOMPH you need to clear something off objectives when you need to seize them. The list really lacks any sort of deadly melee, and without combo bladestorms or some deathspinner fire I really don't see you clearing MEQs off anything at all.

    Barring an army containing an usual amount of AT, I see a lot of ties and 1 objective losses in your future.
    Don't bother having anything more than meaningless small talk on this forum, the moderators won't allow it

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    AT?

    And maybe I need to see some more batreps. But, bladestorm doesn't have that much oomph. Granted guardians would have to plink away for 3-4 turns to get the kills from a single bladestorm.

    On the other hand the guardians are cheaper, and should be quite able to plink away for 3-4 turns during which time the DA will probably have only been able to bladestorm once.

    I suppose DA do have the positioning advantage of being near the enemy objective after the bladestorm.


    Also you mention having a smaller squad of scorps. Do you think I would be better thinning up the squad by say dropping 3 and then using the leftover 20 points to add a vyper or somesuch? Right now they're big due to their job of taking down an entrenched enemy squad or having to fight something like a demon prince in a pinch, which may require being able to lose a few models and still be effective.
    Last edited by sunnyside; March 1st, 2009 at 21:38.

  8. #7
    Senior Member cheart's Avatar
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    To rattrap, I believe the way this army is supposed to work is to minimize its own losses first rather than go out and try to wipe out the enemy. The argument is that the guardians will be deployed in cover with a waveserpent nearby, and the D-cannons will be sitting somewhere in the middle of your deployment zone to punish anyone who comes nearby. Therefore the enemy will be hesitant to come close, and when he does the guardians will mount up, fly towards an objective, and sit there till the end of the battle.

    What sunnyside is counting on is that his anti-tank can kill the enemies anti-tank faster, so that in the later part of the game he still has a couple of transports left to pick up his troops and deliver them wherever they need to be - either on an objective or somewhere to contest an objective. Therefore he doesn't nessessarily have to clear off every objective, maybe only one and he'll be okay.

    Or at least this is how I think sunnyside is trying to play, maybe im wrong?

    At Sunnyside - I think you should try to write up a 1500 point list, as most tournys are 1500 points I think its easier to actually analyze how good an army will be at that limit. At smaller point values its easy to stack up on something (ie 3 wraithlords) and create an army that is unstoppable but who cares because you'd never actually battle with that army. By the way im not trying to say your army is unfairly stacked at all im just saying I'd like to see what it would look like.

  9. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by cheart View Post
    They could, but it seems like your D-cannons are the cornerstone of your defensive strategy, if they're gone what do you have to prevent your enemy from dominating your deployment area and making your guardians mount up for the rest of the game?
    I dunno about cornerstone. They're only 100 points. But like everything in an Eldar list they have a job they are meant to do and if they aren't doing it than that could be a problem.

    However one thing to stress is that the deployment area the guardians set up in is NOT where I'm planning to place the objective, so that once they scare off the guardians and kill the cannons they aren't near where they need to be. And if they went for the objective they've probably been sitting without a cover save and either taken a lot of fire or have sat around not accomplishing too much while watching the rest of the army fight without them.


    Yes this is true. However, they might get a good 2 or 3 turns of shooting off at you before hand, and I don't think your army could match the punishment they'd deal out in these turns.
    Maybe I'll cross that bridge when I come to it unless you can provide more insight into common tactics of guard and tau. I've got a feeling that if they sit back for a couple turns I may well have dropped their transports, making it very hard for them to cross the board.


    Due to the popularity of MEQs, most armies (aside from eldar it seems =P) have low AP weapons aplenty. However you could probably zoom 24" first turn at whatever you wanted, deploy behind the waveserpent second turn getting at least a re-rollable cover save (if not complete blocking of LOS), then assault on turn 3 so you'd be okay there. Still though, that means, if you want to be safe, you have to wait till turn 3 before you could go out and start bashing things.
    Actually do you think it's really safer to deploy behind the serpent before they charge? With a re-rollable 4+ cover save and its special rules the serpent is pretty resiliant, and can totally ignore the low strength stuff. Plus the scorps would probaly come out of an explosion pretty well.




    But aren't your waveserpents for the guardians going to be somewhere far away from the bulk of their army, which probably means far away from their objective? Also, if your scorpion carrying waveserpent is going to dive into the heart of their army, its probably going to be target priority #1 and not survive to see the end of the battle.



    That leaves your falcon, and I like how its kitted out with holofields, shouldn't be too easy to take out then. And its not really carrying a threat at all so should be too high a priority.
    Well the falcon is meant to have the 5 DA inside so it can score or so they can shoot something up if the oportunity arises.

    But for one guardians can shuri cat like DA if they have to. Not as well, but with their heavy weapon not much worse either.

    And at any rate I'm hoping most of the time the heart of the army is trying to get at the firebase around the D-cannons. Leaving fewer elements able to go for objectives. In the multi objective mission I'm probably going flat out to claim abandond objectives, attacking with multiple models(especially scorps) to take others, or, if I have, to, just bodysurfing some serpents and the falcon to contest others.


    As for 1500. I actually picked 1250 because it used to be a popular tourny point total where I used to play. And when it comes to just playing on game night I'd lean toward the smaller total because I work and playing a 2000 point game would simply take too long. Playing a 1250 is often a bit of a rush.

    But with the models I have if I went to 1500 I'd probably add in...hmmmm well I don't have any more heavy skimmers. I think I might add two out of three of the following

    -pack of two vypers
    -a second farseer
    -a unit of jetbikes

    Also I worry and evasive list will have increasing problems as point totals rise. Part of why I've come to considering this list is noticing that in 1250 point games there is often a whole lot of board open. I believe because the mechanics of kill points mean that people are reluctant to field a lot of cheap units, and instead field lower numbers of pricier units, which are easier to get away from.
    Last edited by sunnyside; March 1st, 2009 at 23:04.

  10. #9
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    However one thing to stress is that the deployment area the guardians set up in is NOT where I'm planning to place the objective, so that once they scare off the guardians and kill the cannons they aren't near where they need to be. And if they went for the objective they've probably been sitting without a cover save and either taken a lot of fire or have sat around not accomplishing too much while watching the rest of the army fight without them.
    See this is the thing that confuses me, so your counting on your opponent to run at your D-cannons for what reason then? If they are not near your objective why would your opponent risk coming within their range? Since we're basing this argument on fighting against a standard MEQ army, i'll continue with that. A standard marine squad will have either a heavy bolter or a missile launcher, because both of those guns are free. So if they were to go and sit on the objective that you left in the open, I'm pretty sure they would actually outgun you with their higher BS. You said that they'd be sitting around without a cover save... so what? You don't have any low AP long range weapons (aside from your anti-tank which will be shooting at something else), and if your D-cannons are out of range of the objectives then they wouldn't have a problem. Besides, D-cannons are barrage weapons and they ignore most cover saves anyways. You say that the squad will have taken a lot of firepower, but outside of 12" I see... 2 scatter lasers and an EML for long range firepower, all on BS3 models. I think a marine squad could go sit on an objective and sit for the entire game without being killed by those guns.

    Another possible flaw in this plan is that when you battle you roll off first to place objectives, then roll off again to choose what side you deploy on. So what if your opponent wins the second roll off and then chooses the side that you wanted? Do you think your army has the flexibility to deal with this situation?

    All in all I think you need a more threatening/long range firebase if you want your enemy to be really drawn to it. Maybe some dark reapers or a wraithlord could help you out there.

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    first a rules question. I'm pretty sure that barage weapons DO allow cover saves. It's just that the cover is considered from the direction of the blast. But with area terrain any direction will give them a save.

    And I do intend for the D-cannons to be within range of the objective more often than not. Just not right on it. (what would you think an ideal range would be). However against a foe with decent 24" range shooting I'd ideally want them with something blocking line of sight.

    ooop gotta go.


    Also you seem to have missed some firepower in my list.

    However at the heart of it is that if the enemy chooses to overrun me I stand to lose a lot more if I buy models like reapers especially that lack the ability to run for it.

    As it is if I get overrrun I may well get everyone out of the area except the 100 points of D-cannons.

    Actually I could just drop the D-cannons for a pair of vypers, or a fire prism(though I'd have to buy that) and be fully mechanized. Both would provide more firepower at long range and dodge around some, but within 24" the D-cannons can dish out a lot more (and for now they're fun since people don't know them).
    Last edited by sunnyside; March 2nd, 2009 at 01:27.

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