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  1. #1
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    Tournament grade? C&C Needed PLEASE

    I would like to start by saying I do understand that I would only have 10 models as troop choices but the plan would be to keep them in cover and far back while the Harlequin Troupes dance the field. The Dragons would mount inside of the Falcon for quick help to either the Harlequins or the Pathfinders if need be. I would have Eldrad near the Harlequins to fortune them while the other farseer would hang back to help protect the pathfinders

    Does the idea seem reasonable?

    HQ
    Eldrad
    Farseer - Fortune, Runes of Witnessing
    -3x Warlocks - 3x Destructor

    Troops
    5x Pathfinders
    5x Pathfinders

    Elite
    10x Harlequin Troupe - Troupe Master with powersword, Shadowseer with Harlequin Kiss, 8x Harlequin Kiss
    10x Harlequin Troupe - Troupe Master with powersword, Shadowseer with Harlequin Kiss, 8x Harlequin Kiss
    6x Fire Dragons - Exarch with Dragon Breath Flamer, Crack Shot

    Heavy Support
    Falcon - Holofields, Spirit Stone, Vectored Engines, Shuriken Cannon, Pulse Laser, Scatter Laser


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  3. #2
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    Reasonable? Not so much in my opinion.

    The big problem being that in 5th edition 2/3rds of the time it's about getting scoring units onto objectives.

    With so few troops and no troops capable of moving to distant objectives you're going to be hard pressed to get wins.

    The other problem you're going to run into is that you seem to be imagining battle as a "pitched battle" where you start on one side of the table, and the enemy starts on the other and you move toward each other and clash in the middle.

    That kind of logic could hold for some battles, and might be the case in warhammer fantasy.

    However in 40K for every battle like that you'll have another where everything your opponent has enters play via deep strike and lays template weapons all over. Most of the time it's somewhere in between. But the idea that you can form a battle line is usually incorrect.

    Also a specific trouble with using rangers on the objectives close to you is that emenies that engage the rangers will then be claiming/contesting the objective.

    Personally I'm increasingly putting units like rangers away from objectives, but with good sight lines on them. So enemies that go after them take themselves out of the fight in the process and if ignored they get to fire away.
    Last edited by sunnyside; April 11th, 2009 at 23:24.

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    Yeah the more I think about it them more I see you point, because the rangers do have 2+ cover saves but they would be the number one target. I have bumped the points up to 2000 and came up with this semi Iyanden list. Perhaps it would work a bit better?


    HQ
    Eldrad

    Troops
    10 Wraithguards w/ conceal warlock
    5 Pathfinders
    10 Guardians - Scatter Laser
    10 Guardians - Scatter Laser

    Elite
    10 Harlequins - Troupe Master (PW), Shadow Seer (HK), 7x Harlequin Kiss
    Wave Serpent - TL Shurken Cannon
    10 Harlequins - Troupe Master (PW), Shadow Seer (HK), 7x Harlequin Kiss
    Wave Serpent - TL Shurken Cannon

    Heavy Support
    Wraithlord - Missile Launcher, Brightlance
    Wraithlord - Missile Launcher, Brightlance
    Last edited by Nihmindu; April 13th, 2009 at 19:08.

  5. #4
    The Singing Blade Dream Thief's Avatar
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    Wraithguard are a horribly expensive choice for a serious tourney list

    ~ L


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    Expensive but resilient. I thought about perhaps 2 DA squads but they never seem to do much for me except get annilated

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    Senior Member FartsMcGee's Avatar
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    I Didn't think that harlies could ride in a wave serpent. I believe that the wave serpent is specifically a DEDICATED transport. And since it can't be bought specifically for your harleys it means that it has to be bought for a different unit. So theoretically you could buy the transport for your guardians, deploy it with them in it, and then spend a turn or two (cause the guards have to disembark, and the harleys embark the next turn) swapping them aournd to get the harleys in the waveserpent. But that's a lot of time spent not killing stuff. This is the big reason why i use banshees instead of harleys. With the veil you could plausibly get them to where they are going, but honestly you're better off hoping for a DoW deplotment and first turn if you want to get em in to killing range before they get shot to dramatic pieces. The other option is to slash the units in half and throw them in falcons, which offers the same priveldges of a wave serpent plus the possibilities of holo-fields and more shooty. So i guess my suggestion here would be, scrap one of the harley squads, swap it for banshees leave em in a serpent, and the with the rest of the points half the other harley squad and buy a falcon and trick it out how you please. In the end you get a similar-ish effect as a pair of wave-serpented harleys but with the joy of playing with in tournament rules and regs.

    Yeah and to agree with Dream Theif, bringing wraithguard in a tourney list is almost a guaruntee not to earn their points back. Everyone has a way to deal with em.. at 2000 points or just ignores em. Eitherway, its tough to get them into a situation where their WICKED SICK weapons do much good. Conceal isn't all that worth it either... enhance would be a better choice as the wraithguards toughness helps off set most incoming fire, and conceal doesn't do much against the stuff that their armor would stop anyway... namely vindicator fire. I had a buddy lose his whole wraith guard on the first turn cause his opponent rolled well with a vindicator shot. That's crippling. That kind of ultra high vulnerability with no means of transporting em up, or mittigating the damage with invulns for such an expensive unit makes it a risky choice at best. I really like the idea of harlies, zipping around and making mischief. And 5 pathfinders i find is the perfect number. I park em pretty far away usually up high, and make sure that they are never a priorty target. They thin the enemy squads pretty well, and since you didn't sink 230 (or whatever it is) points into a ten man squad of em its not the end of the world if they suffer an unfortunate end. Everytime i've brought them, they always earn their points back.

    I agree with sunnyside too, regarding where to put em. Since the objective play means that the enemy troops are going to where you are (usually in a transport) the chances of pathfinders weathering that storm is pretty small, but since you know that they AREN'T gonna leave the ojective it gives our mysterious little friends a carnival style shooting gallery.

    I'm sorry to hear that your DA don't last that long. In my experience if i protect em, and run away a lot they are awesome, especially in a wave serpent. The peek-a-boo blade storm is my best friend.

    The only other thing i would sugget is thinning out the wraithlord armament. When 80 points of weapons goes down that a substantial loss to the fire power of the army. Have it happen twice and it can be crippling. Not only that, but i find the wraithlord to be far more menacing when he is moving more than a lousey 6 inches per turn. So every time a wraithlord runs that's 80 pts of weapons not shooting. There is nothing wrong with using a wraithlord as a weapons platform, but there are more discret and cheap way to do it. With the points saved from scraping some of the wraithguard and the wraithlord's weapons you could drop it on a no-frills prism, or buy a couple of guardians with heavy weapon plats. This serves two purposes, one obviously is the firepower, and 2 is the ABSOLUTE necessity to keep the enemy constantly having to figure out what posses the biggest threat, a pair of wraithloard crushing their way towards him, a fire prism smashing his tanks, or the horrifying thought of the wicked sick, albeit easily shootable, harlequins frolicking merrily to him. If you go the guard route, most players view those as NON-THREATS, it isn't until the cute litte guardian start wrecking his tanks with a lance that he starts trying to kill them, and by then, you're already chewing on his ear.

    Hope that helps
    Last edited by FartsMcGee; April 15th, 2009 at 22:13.

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    Resident Mongoose Mongooseo's Avatar
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    Fifth eliminated the idea of dedicated transports. He could purchase the transports for his guardians, and them embark the harlequins on them.
    I agree with the consensus on warithguard, pick something else. They are resilient, but you could spend that 400ish points elsewhere to much better ends (better troops, more units, different heavy support, some fast attack, the list goes on).

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    I've made some major changes to the list based on some of the feedback (this is my first tournament so forgive the newbness, I do appreciate the comments though)

    HQ
    Farseer - Fortune, Doom, Spirit Stones, Rune of Witnessing, Singing Spear
    Farseer - Fortune, Doom, Spirit Stones, Rune of Witnessing, singing Spear
    (I plan to have these two each attached to two of the guardian squads that will be pushing forward to keep warm bodies around them as to ensure their survival while they fortune and doom the Harlequins targets)

    Troops
    10x Guardians - Scatter Lasers
    10x Guardians - Scatter Lasers
    10x Guardians - Scatter Lasers
    (Two of the squads will be moving forward with the farseers behind the Harlequin Troupe to hopefully cause the opponent to fight for the objectives closer to his deployment zone, as well as keep the farseers alive. The other squad will sit back in cover near an objective near my deployment zone so that I will be able to run to the objective on turn five while taking pop shots at lower armor vehicles as well as anything attempting to get close to them)
    5x Rangers
    5x Rangers
    (The Rangers Ive downgraded to add a few things, but a 3+ save is not to bad and I will have these near other objectives closer to my deployment zone mainly as a back up objective runners)

    Elites
    10x Harlequins - Troupe Master w/ Power sword, Shadow Seer w/ Harlequin kiss, 8x Harlequin Kiss
    10x Harlequins - Troupe Master w/ Power sword, Shadow Seer w/ Harlequin kiss, 8x Harlequin Kiss
    (Harlequins I hope to use as my troop destroyers, as well as cause TONS of threat to take off most of the heat on my Troops)
    6x Fire Dragons - Exarch w/ Dragon Breath Flamer and Crack shot
    (Tank busters... its what they do best, or take care of any nasty MEQs/TEQs my Harlequins were unable to reach. The Dragon Breath Flamer is simply incase a horde army plays where I may need a bit extra to get rid of them)

    Fast Attack
    7x Warp Spiders - Exarch w/ dual Spinners, Power blades, Withdraw
    (I will deep strike the warp spirders hopefully turn two just in time for my Harlequins to get into shooting range so that I can use the warp spiders to do some back armor hunting plus everyone I've ever played using the warp spiders always hates them because the never sit still and can pump enough shots out to take small units out as well 7 models with 16 s6 shots is always fearful)

    Heavy Support
    Falcon - Holo-Fields, Spirit Stones, Scatter Laser
    (Falcon is mainly to transport the fire dragons but also to be used as a long range tank hunter)
    2x War Walkers - 4x Scatter Lasers
    2x War Walkers - 4x Scatter Lasers
    (These although have guns with AP6 they still can put out 32 shots in a 36" radius at s6 they will be good for ripping through orks/nids/guardsmen, and personally I think they would do alright against MEQs... 3+ save is nice but you are bound to roll a few ones and twos it may not wipe them out but it would cause some damage that my Harlequins can finish up)
    Last edited by Nihmindu; April 16th, 2009 at 05:27.

  10. #9
    Senior Member FartsMcGee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mongooseo View Post
    Fifth eliminated the idea of dedicated transports. He could purchase the transports for his guardians, and them embark the harlequins on them.
    I got it right here in front of me, page 67

    Dedicated transports
    Sometimes a unit entry in a Codex will include a transport option, allowing a vehicle to be selected together with the unit. These 'dedicated transports' do not use up a slot on the force organisation chart. Other vehicles may also have a transport capacity, but they are chosen separately as normal and occupy a force organisation chart slot of their own (for example, the mighty Space Marine Land Raider).

    The only limitation of a dedicated transport is that when it is deployed it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any independent characters). After the game begins, it can the transport any friendly infantry unit, subject to transport capacity and other special exclusions, as explained in the vehicle's entry (it might not be able to transport Terminators, for example)

    If it deploys with guardians it's gotta disembark guardians first. I looked in the errata too and couldn't find any exception to it. So he's still burning two turns embarking his harleys, and subsequntly not killing stuff with the harleys.

    In regards to running the fortune seers with the guardians, fortune can only be cast within 6 inches of the farseer, so unless you are planning on running your guards along side the transports and and after they disembark its not going to get a lot of action. Doom on the other hand goes 24" and can be cast from down town. You can attach the farseer to the harleys, but then you loose hit and run, which may or may not be important to your play style. Working with harleys is really tough, i still think that swaping one of the units of harleys out for banshees is a good idea, that way you can stick a farseer with both em, so the seers both get plenty of wounds before they keel over and whatever you need still gets fortune and doomed and it saves you a couple of points for what is effectively the same thing, (banshees get fewer attacks and hit with strength 3, but doom usually more than makes up for it and they are using power weapons, where as the harleys are rolling for 6's for their power weapons. I suppose its a matter of preference but the banshees are cheaper.

    I'm also on a personal crusade to get runes of whitnessing out of people's lists. The chances of going over on a farseers check is only 3/36, or 1 in 12. Adding runes of whitnessing only effectively increases the chances of pulling perils of the warp because you HAVE to take the lowest two (which sucks) because now, instead of just one chance to roll snake eyes, you have a bunch more (i think its like 16, excuse my math, i've been out of school too long). Failing fortune sucks, but if you keep your ladies/harleys in the serpents until its go time, chances are there won't be much left to shoot with especially if they both strike at the same time.
    Last edited by FartsMcGee; April 16th, 2009 at 04:39.

  11. #10
    Resident Mongoose Mongooseo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FartsMcGee View Post
    The only limitation of a dedicated transport is that when it is deployed it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any independent characters). After the game begins, it can the transport any friendly infantry unit, subject to transport capacity and other special exclusions, as explained in the vehicle's entry (it might not be able to transport Terminators, for example)
    What I meant was that the harlequins could embark on them once the game began. Of course they could not be on board during deployment, but it is fully possible to have them jump on board on turn one, then jump out on turn two and pound the snot out of stuff.

    On the dragon exarch, you're probably better with another fusion gun. If you're looking to kill infantry, pick a different unit, go for the TEQ units if you are out of vehicles.
    Last time I checked, shadowseers cannot have kisses. I'd also drop enough kisses anyway to add another spyder or two, as the extra bodies help with shooting and surviving warp jumps.

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