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Ok, I will probably be playing a 3000pt game against my Chaos Space Marine friend on saturday. I think its rather fitting that I hand his ass to him with 'crons after we watch the new terminator movie (it looks awesome!). Anyhow, I pretty much know CSM inside out. I have their codex and I've started collecting a CSM army myself, but unfortunately he knows 'crons well too, as it is him that sold me the dex after his bro gave up crons for nids.
This, so far, is therefore not looking like much of a tactical battle. We know to much about eachothers armies. Its basicaly a list strength brawl, I'm hoping you can help me turn this around. Heres what I'm facing, for those of you who have some good anti-chaos tricks.
Tzeenzch Daemon Prince with Gift of Chaos and Wind of Chaos
Abbadon the despoiler
5 termis, armed to the teeth with god knows what
30 CSM, also fully armed with "stuff"
Unit of 1k sons
Unit of zerkers
Unit of Plaguers
Land Raider (dedicated to termis, but probably wont be used as transport)
Plasma cannon dreadnought
Maybe some other stuff...
The daemon prince inparticular will be a bit of a problem, as a roll of 6 on a D6 it can reduce any non vehicle model to a writhing spawn (which he controlls). All eyes on my nightbringer. Actualy, his list is quite nasty, and my heavy destroyers have alot of work to do.
Here is my list:
1 lord w/ res orb
60 warriors in squads of 10
3 hvy destroyers
20 scarabs in squads of 10
Please help me think up some tactics. The game will probably be played length ways on a 6" board with 2" deployment each side in medium terrain. I plan to keep as much res orbed as possiable and just rapida his squads but otherwise I dont know what to do, especialy with my monoliths.
Ty in advance ~ Black Hawk
Good amount of warriors. But i say that you should have more destroyers, or drop them. Destroyers get effective in at least 2 squads. Same goes for just about every necron unit...
The exeption is in a flying circus build, with a veil-lord and some immortals. He's got lots of nasty stuff, necrons have a hard time killing vehicles. If you really want to use heavy destroyers, then i think that you should drop a monolith for more of them. But, i think that you are better off with tomb spyders.
So, something like:
That leaves us with points 165 pts. Just fill in the points where they fit. Some extra warriors and destroyers maybe...
The monolith is good for defending the phalanx. Shooting the evil enemies or re-rolling saves. Spyders can go for tank or terminator hunting. Or, they can protect the phalanx. Serving as counter-charge. Your nightbringer should attack everything that moves...
It seems like you are playing fairly well, continue that way
Ty for the advice, but unfortunately the battle is on saturday so I've got no chance to swap my models... I think you hit the nail on the head with keeping the NB in combat, as it protects him from a lot of fire. Having said that though, it doesnt protect me from that evil prince, i think ill just use hm as cannon fodder unitl the inevitable hapens: he reaches spawndom... the hard way...
Or, you kill the prince before he makes a nightbringer into a spawn...
I recommend a flying circus set up. Get the lord a veil, and make him and his immortals hit where it hurts. At the prince.
If you have an extra destroyer, go for him instead a squad of scarabs. That should give you room for a veli...
I'm already beggining to tell that our play styles differ greatly lol. anyway... no problem.
Right. Killing the prince will be a big problem. It has like lodsa wounds and a 4+ invon (his does anyway). See the rulebook ref for the full lowdown. I'm not realy willing to risk the protection of my troops for a fluke-shot at the prince that will probably fail. I think that gift of chaos has a poor range... so if i wait for the prince to get close i can unleash over 200 gauss shots on him (OUCH!) if neccesary. Mind you... should 5 destroyers be enough to down a prince? I might try it. BTW I do have a single more destroyer... but id rather have 10 scarabs to tie up his HUGE troops base... and his khornate zerkers.
I know ive rejected most of your ideas (sincere apologies). but youve inspired a few tactical changes. TY *rep*
Keep it coming ~ The guy with the odd avatar
Oh, 20 bs4 s5 shots could take that prince down in a single turn. That might make you opponent scared and then he blasts these guys off the board with everything he got. As they should survive it, the lord can calmly get back into position in the next round. The veil also gives you a chance at objectives in the last moment. Giving you some flexibility.
The scarabs aren't really worth their points in speedbumping anymore, since 5th ed fearless nerf. At least in my opinion. And 2 X 3 Destroyers are very effective for their points. With the great tomb spyder, they get great flexibility. Getting a wiped squad, who then automaticly teleports to another squad. Two spyders, and you can have the whole board between them.
But, if you don't have any spyders and can't proxy to see them in action, i won't blame you for using heavy destroyers. Though they are quite fragile in comparison to the other two heavy options
And when it comes down to the important things. What is most fun, tying his units up, or killing them?
Edit: Zerkers are easy to kill with a particle whip
Last edited by visseking; June 2nd, 2009 at 21:12.
Okay, let me first address a couple of issues discussed above:Statistically, on average this would cause 1.48 wounds on a Daemon Prince. 20 Warriors rapid firing would do the same. 5 Destroyers, on the other hand, would cause 1.66 wounds. Don't waste those Immortal shots on something another unit could handle better. Even if the Prince is winged, you should have at least two turns of shooting with the Destroyers.Oh, 20 bs4 s5 shots could take that prince down in a single turn.I don't. With 60 warriors, 10 Immortals and 8 Destroyers - your Lord is going to have a hard time getting everyone within Res. Orb range as it is. The moment to teleport your Lord away from your Phalanx, that Vindicator and Defiler are going to decimate your lines. Keep him with your army and use him to support the units.I recommend a flying circus set up.These are a relatively small threat. They are slow and while tough, do relatively little damage until they get into close-mid range. Resist the tempation to go after these with all you have.5 termis, armed to the teeth with god knows what
Okay, now for some tactics:
Deployment: If you can, let him set up first so that you get the 2nd turn. Deploy 11" from the forward edge of your deployment zone in a Phalanx formation. Use cover as much as possible. His army is incredible slow with only 1 transport option, so in the first turn he will try to close with you as quickly as he can. He'll move 6" and possibly run 1-6". This should put him between 13-19" from you, giving you one turn of regular shooting and one turn of rapid fire. Even more if you move backwards in turn two.
Monoliths: I would deploy them at the front of your lines with portals facing towards you. For the first turn or two use the Particle Whip on his scoring units that are most threatening, most likely the Khorne Berzerkers and Plague Marines to negate their FNP. When he closes with you, use the 'Liths to teleport out of close combat but facing your deployment zone - aim to keep everything within Res. Orb range at all times and keep your lines bolstered. While it's tempting to teleport away from you and behind his lines - don't do it! Your units can then be picked off easily. Monoliths are rock hard, use them to block Line of Sight to your critical units. Use one as a moving shield for Nightbringer!
Scarabs: Despite Fearless having taken a hit in 5th, these are still very useful tarpits. If they hold up crucial units (read: Berserkers) for even one or two turns then they've earned their points. In the first turn, turbo boost them and spread them out in front of your Phalanx to provide moving cover with a cover save. Even if he spends turn 1 shooting at them, that's one turn he's not shooting at anything else.
Alternatively, you could try giving the D. Fields and boosting towards the Defiler, Vindicator and Land Raider. Even if all you get is a Weapon Destroyed or Stunned result, that's still effectively removing them from play for one turn. Numbercrunching a little, we can calculate the average chance of 10 Scarabs vs 1 Land Raider:
40 attacks on the charge, 4+ to hit, 6+ to glance
= 1.66 Shaken, 0.55 Stunned, 0.55 Weapon Destroyed, 0.55 Immobilised
If he didn't move, then one of each is almost guaranteed (0.92).
These Scarabs are the most effective weapons you have in your army (bar Nightbringer) of rendering his vehicles useless. Remember you don't have to destroy them. Immobilised (then keep out of range) or Weapon Destroyed is usually enough.
Destroyers and Heavy Destroyers: As mentioned, the Destroyers have the best chance in your army (bar Nightbringer) to take out that Daemon Prince - USE THEM. If you're clever (and he's not Winged) then you can get at least 3 rounds of shooting off. This should, if you roll average, be enough to kill him. Heavy Destroyers should concentrate on the Lower AV vehicles like the Dreadnought or heavy troops like Obliterators or Terminators. The chances of taking out the Vindicator or Land Raider are very, very small. So don't waste those shots.
Warriors, Immortals and Lord: This is pretty self explanatory. Keep them out of combat at all costs, use the Monolith and Veil of Darkness to do so. But: try to keep them all within Resurrection Orb range. This is critical to your survival as long as the Dreadnought, Defiler and Vindicator are active on the field. Rapid fire at his troops as much as you possibly can while doing the above. Use the Immortals to focus on the more threatening units, but keep firing at Troops all the same.
Nightbringer: Under no circumstances should you try to take down his Daemon Prince with Nightbringer, as one lucky roll of a 6 will mean you have wasted 360 points. Instead, he should spend most of the game hiding in your lines (or in terrain, behind the Monolith) out of sight before springing out to tear up the Terminators or Abaddon. Neither are much of a match for him, I don't think. He's the only effective method you have of negating 2+ saves, so after picking off a Terminator or two with Heavy Destroyers use him to take out the rest once they get to your lines.
Alternatively, use the Deceiver: You sacrifice relatively little in terms of combat ability. 1 point of WS, S or T doesn't really matter when you're taking out primarily WS4 T4 troops. The real bonus here is that the Deceiver can leave combat at any time, unlike Nightbringer who cannot do so because Chaos Space Marines are S4. He is a much more flexible option. Besides, how much did you use Nightbringer's special abilities anyway? Didn't think so.
Hopefully that's been helpful, if I think of anything else I'll make sure to add it.
i just have one question. In his list you said he has a land raider, 2 oblits, a vindicator, and a defiler. you cant dedicate a landraider so he has 4 heavy supports. I wasnt sure if you were playing outside of the force org or if it was a mistake on someones part.
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