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So after seeing that HQ are worth 5 kill points in one of the missions (!) I'm wondering if it's worth taking 2 HQ choices. Will the benefits outweigh the negatives in the kill point games? How about the benefits in the two other games (which still have kill points, but everything is worth 1)?
As of right now, I'm thinking about taking just Ghazghkull as he's dead 'ard, has 4 wounds, and is immune to instant death (and has a 2+ invulnerable on one turn). I figured he'd lead a small group of Mega Nobz. However, without a KFF or the Mad Dok, they'll be vulnerable to high power weaponry...
Another intriguing choice would be Zogwort to take out the expensive and kitted out IC that I'm sure to be facing. Problem is, what would be the best way to use him? I was thinking mixed in with 'Ard boyz' in a Battlewagon or trukk, but I can only move 6" and shoot with him and he only has an 18" range so he'd be easy to avoid. On foot he'd be easy to avoid as well. Just zoom him up and unload? I've never played with him, but people say he is easy to kill. I find it hard to believe he'll be knocked off in 1 turn due to T5 and 3 wounds. Against dangerous squads, you could just keep him out of base to base if you want to keep him around for later in the game. Against mediocre squads, you could risk a wound or two and count on him to take down a few guys with 2+d6 poisoned attacks. I don't see any way that he'd be killed in one turn. Facing up against most ICs such a PW or PF equipped SM commander won't be able to take him down in one turn. Even several assault troops in b-t-b contact probably wouldn't be able to take him down and 12 or 20 ard boyz with a PK nob should be able to finish off most squads...
As far as rolling a 1, 2, or 3 for his psychic power and granting him a power weapon for the 'duration of that turn', does that me a complete turn as in both players, or just your turn that you charge. If combat goes on for 2+ turns, he will never get to use his PW again as using a psychic power and rolling on the chart counts as shooting, correct?
Mad Dok would be my other possible choice. Stick him in a trukk or battlewagon to alleviate his crazed disability, and give cybork bodies to the Meganobz and his trukk mob. A trukk or wagon with 2 PKs should be able to tear through anything, even with the smaller squad size. I'm thinking Trukk, as it's only worth 1 KP vs 2 KP in scenario 2 and has an extra 6" of move (as well as cheaper).
As far as my army goes as of right now, I've changed it to even more of a foot slogging army now that I know the scenarios that we'll be playing (and now that I'm taking Ghazghkull). After playing a test game against an elite Chaos army filled with Terminators and Plague Marines (10 potential kill points), my army (15 potential kill points) got decimated. I was figuring I'd just ignore the kill point missions and focus on the other missions but now that every mission uses KP, I figured I'd revamp my list. I thought I had a well balanced list and it would probably do okay, but I like my new list better. Here's a rundown of both, and why I made certain changes:
Basic warboss w/ bosspole leading 4 MAN in deffrolla equipped BW
5 nobz w/ 2 PK in deffrolla equipped BW
30 Shoota boyz kitted out
30 Shoota boyz kitted out
11 ard boyz (slugga) in Trukk with Warboss w/ PK
20 Grots shielding
3 Rokkit buggies
5 tl big shoota
15 Kommandos w/ Snikkrot
That was 15 KP using normal rules, 27 under scenario 2
Ghazghkull leading 5 MAN in Trukk
30 Shoota Boyz fully equipped
30 Shoota Boyz fully equipped
26 Slugga Boyz with Nob only
25 Slugga Boyz with Nob only
30 Grots shielding
15 Lootas and
3x Zzapp guns with full compliment of ammo runts and extra crew
3 Rokkit buggies
5 tl big shoota
15 Kommandos w/ Snikkrot
This is now only 13 KP and 22 under scenario 2
I had good luck with the Grotz/Lootas in my first test game so I figured I'd add the Zzapp guns. Even though they did not cause massive casualties (due to only have 1 tank and it was a Land Raider, and only Terminators and Plague Marines as troops to shoot at), the lootas did not get shot at and probably would not have been able to be shot at even if the enemy had wanted to. With their long range and high strength, they should be devestating against most of the armies that I face. The 30 grots will act as an effective shield against anything that gets within range to shoot. Zzapp guns are cheap and I get 3 awesome MEQ/terminator killer shots a turn, or even light/medium tank/Dreadnaught/Defiler killer. There should be more pressing targets for the enemy to shoot but the grots still should be able to contest 1 or 2 objectives (30 grots will easily span the 12" between the two home objectives).
By getting rid of most of my transports, I will deny my opponent the use of most of their anti-tank weapons, as well as easy kill points. Battlewagons are tough, but with large forces filled with anti-tank firepower, it will be quite easy to hit the side and destroy them, as I found out in my test game. Plus, with Ghazghkull's waagh, movemen't shouldn't be a big issue.
With only 1 fast unit troops choice (although VERY hard hitting), I will most likely use it to support my Kommandos who should be able to tie up the enemy for a turn or two until the heavy hitters arrive.
I should be able to get two more test games in before the tourney starts - one against a SM player, and one against a CSM player (a different one than the guy that I played against and lost)
So, thoughts on my army list as a whole?
Thoughts about 2 HQ choices? Should I drop a slugga squad and reduce the size of the other to take either the Mad Dok or Wogwort and mount them in a Trukk or Battlewagon? That would up the KP by 1 or 5 vs two 25 man slugga squads, and make them easier to kill (as compared to 25+ slugga boyz) but could possibly make that up by killing an enemy IC, or by making my MegaNobz harder to kill (denying KPs).
Why? Can't the red painted trukk go 13" and zogwort still shoot? and if they have to avoid zogwort... good... that'll make their IC's less useful / flexible.Another intriguing choice would be Zogwort to take out the expensive and kitted out IC that I'm sure to be facing. Problem is, what would be the best way to use him? I was thinking mixed in with 'Ard boyz' in a Battlewagon or trukk, but I can only move 6" and shoot with him and he only has an 18" range so he'd be easy to avoid
can someone link to the 'ard boys rules?
I dunno - can he? I was always under the impression that troops in fast transports could shoot as long as they didn't move over 12". However, the local 'rules guru' (even though I've corrected him once or twice before) that I played against this weekend said they can't and that the rules for transport vehicles state that embarked troops count as moving if the vehicle moves and can't shoot if it moves at cruising speed (which it does in fact say in the rulebook). It doesn't specifically mention passengers shooting under the fast vehicles section but I had always assumed as it allows the vehicle to shoot weapons at one faster speed, the same would apply to passengers.
Maybe I should put this in the 40k rules section but we'll see if I get any more hits here...
I would like to see someone smarter than me tackle this question, but after looking over the rules again I think you're right...."models firing from a vehicle .... may not fire at all if the vehicle moved at crusing speed that turn" being fast doesnt change what cruising speed is, it just says that fast vehicles moving at crusing speed may fire all *it's* weapons. So, unless this has been FAQ'd, the clear "letter" of the law is that a red trukk going 13 the unit inside cant fire...
however, this rule only applies to models firing from inside the vehicle... zogwort can disembark 2" and then use the ability up to 18" away, so, that's 13 + 2 + 18 = 33" If the trukk starts directly in front of the IC, it can pop it on turn one (in pitched deploy) Right? 48" from table edge to table edge, - 12 inches for the deploy zone = the trukk is 36" of the table edge. As long as the IC is further than 3" from its edge, zogwort will reach.
Now, if the IC is on the edge of their deploy zone (depending on the IC and the opposing army, it may be) Zogwort has a pretty extensive threat range, imagine two right triangles side by side, the bases of which are on the enemies deploy edge and the hypotenuses of which are 33 inches (the maximum range of zogworts ability) The angle opposite the base (the one closest to zogwort) is 49 degrees, the sin of which is roughly .755, meaning the base of our triangle is roughly 25 inches ( that's sin(49) = X/33 because sin = OPP/HYP and the HYP is known to be 33) So if zogwort moves at most 49 degrees in either direction (left/right) he can reach as much as 25 inches away from himself horozontally, that's 50 inches of what's probably a 72 inch board. If the opponent deploys any IC's on the front edge of his/her deploy zone and the ork player goes first, zogwort should be in range.
(also notice that if the angle is anything less than 49 degrees the threat range extends into the opponents deploy zone, up to the point where an angle of 0 degrees (straight ahead) creates a threat zone extending 33 inches straight forward... each change in the angle by 1 degree increases the amount of the threat range in the enemies deploy zone by some amount which i havent calculated... its basically the derivative of x with respect to theta....)
So what are the odds of success? I think it's less than a coin flip (<50%) because the ork player loses on ties. (Don't the rules say you have to roll MORE than the other player?) But I haven't worked out what the odds actually are. Before I spend the points on zogwort I'll have to know for sure what the risk of him succeeding are.
wait. zogworts 'curse' is not a shooting attack. This discussion is irrelevant. Even if the unit cant shoot there's no reason why he cant use this ability. He only needs LOS.
Well, I could be wrong, but the 'curse' does not have a profile like zzap does... so, heck, that trukk could move flat out and he could still pop the curse... which makes all the math i did above completely irellevant, the threat range is 18 + 18 not 13+2+18....
someone correct me if i'm wrong....
Wow - that's some hard-core application of math there in regards to 40k! I think you're right about Zogwort's curse power. It says it's used as a psychic power, but it's not a shooting attack, so it seems to me that it could be used even if a Trukk moved flat out. If so, there's almost no where to hide...
Another question though - what happens to 'eadbanger results when the unit is still embarked in a transport?
center the template on the trukk... so it takes a str 6 hit.... and that'd be great to be honest, if there's a eadbanger in *your* shooting phase, after the trukk had moved... a ramshackle can be really good, odds are decent that if it karreens it'll go in a forwardly direction, so even if the unit inside wasnt in assault range, it might be if the trukk blows up somewhere convenient.
Thats why 'eadbanger has never seemed scary to me... it only happens 1/36 turns (even fewer because the warphead can fail leadership sometimes..) (unless you reroll more often than you should) and even when it *does* happen, its not always bad, and if you put the warphead (or zogwort) with the right kind of unit. ( i put mine with nobz in a trukk)
I dunno. That means it takes maybe 2 successive trials to quasi-reliably kill an IC.... but think about the cost.... giving up a roll on the warphead table.... and the extra points.... hrm... I dunno, those arent *bad* odds, they certainly arent reliable though. a 41.6% chance of destroying an IC on turn one... how much are you willing to pay for that?
Tough to say if that's worth it in a regular game but that'd be worth 5 kill points in scenario 2 of the 'ard boyz tournament. Against an elitist army that'd be nothing short of miraculous as the HQs are where the victory is going to come from.
I'm not one to pick an HQ for one scenario in a three scenario tournament of that scale (and god forbid you drew twin lash or nids without a broodlord for that scenario) and I'm still not going to take Zogwort but... It's worth considering and if I wasn't so attached to my SAG I'd seriously consider Zogwort as my second HQ for my 'Ard Boyz list.
"Orks have to be followers of Nurgle! They're green, smell bad, and just want to spread the fun!"
The premium for zogwort is 60 points... How many points will the average IC take out in a turn? Forget the point value of the IC, just, consider how many wounds the IC can inflict, on average, in any given turn... When you look at it that way, a 40% chance of killing that IC is a bargain, especially for any army with expensive choices like meganobz and/or nob bikers.
Can someone link to the 'ard boys scenarios????
I'm headed over to my brother's place for a late night gaming banaza where we're going to attempt to play all three scenarios. I've included Zogwort in my footslogging army and I'll see how he does against CSM. I'll report back any findings later this weekend.
As far as the scenarios, they're located here:
Click under the 'Preliminaries' on the 'Ard Boyz' page on the GW website and scroll to the very bottom of the participating stores to see the link if the above link does not work.
I would suggest maybe taking 8 MANz, Gazghkull, and Mad Dok in one battlewagon. Then buy all of the invulnerable saves for your manz. That squad will be damn near unkillable, and really really vicious. it will be a 11 kill point squad on 1 mission, but you will easily mow down 20 of theirs. MANZ with FNP is just plain mean. Then Gazghkull with FNP is inifintely worse.
people may direct a lot of swings at the doc, but that is fine. he is still fairly durable. that just means they are ignoring the other 31 st9+ powerweapon swings hitting them in the face.
As for zogwart, he is pretty sick at large point games. keep him in a battlewagon with 9+ burna boyz. it grants him LD 10 for his psychic powers, and you have the option to deep strike a million flamers onto a randomly exposed devestator squad.