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Ok, Im facing CSMs tommorow and I need a list that can down armour 3 in a pinch. Heres what I had in mind.
140 - Lord With Res Orb
720 - 50 Warriors in squads of 10
470 - 2 Monoliths
1510 points in total.
Lord guards the warriors, Liths stand by and blast all that aproaches.
Here was my opponents list last time I faced him, but last time he wasnt expecting a lith, now he will be:
Daemon Prince w/ unknown config
5 termis armed to the teeth
7 1k sons
1 dreadnought (that did nothing but shoot his DP)
The game is tommorow, so I would appreciate all help i can get today. plz help, Ill rep everyone that helps, im that desperte =]
Pretty heavy phalanx you've got going. I'd seriously consider fitting some destroyers or maybe heavy destroyers into that list. The ranged punch would let you slow down his rhinos, putting a huge wrench in overall plans. Also just glancing the defiler a few times from long range could really help you. Having a max range of 24" could put you at a disadvantage, gives you less time to respond to his units. The monoliths' weapons are very powerful but that 12" of extra range could really grant you an edge.
Personally I'd go heavy destroyers, less shots but S9 against AV12 will really ruin his day. with this though, you either need to kill his defiler in one shot, or not be in it's firing arc with the heavies, one battlecannon blast will send them packing.
I agree with Alzer's advice to get some destroyers in there. But don't make them heavy ones. You need many shots and you need squads big enough to guarantee you will get WBB. I would take at least two squads of 3 each, better make it 4. (You'll have to drop two squads of warriors and take 3 and 4 destroyers each in a squad, I fear, but it's worth the trouble. Your warriors may seem fine for phase out, but they won't keep you clear of assaults and in close combat you will achieve phase out so much more quickly that having those extra models won't help you squat.)
What to do with these: Don't go for that battle cannon first! Screw it. It won't wipe out entire squads and since your guys just get back up on the turn thereafter it will be more of a frustration to your opponent than the greatest danger to you. Sure, if you can get rid of it - do it, but there is more important things to start with. Let me tell you.
The real danger is close combat. You don't have power weapons, the enemy does. He has double your attacks base and he will hit hard. He will cause so many wounds that your morale test is bound to fail. His initiative is well above yours and therefore any assaulted warrior squad will be completely taken out - without you getting to roll any WBB! To heck with the battle cannon. KILL THOSE DARNED RHINOS!!
Every move you deny them with the rhino will mean about one and a half turns of foot-slogging without mobile cover, granting your firebase many more shots on the advancing models. So the further away you get the rhinos smacked the better for you. Make this your priority target. If you get turn one, then speed ahead with your destroyers far enough to target the rhinos immediately, gaining you the advantage of the enemy not having blown any smoke yet, so he won't get to save against your shots. Those many high-S shots will keep the rhino from moving at least and have a decent chance of killing them outright.
What else to do with them: contest objectives! Don't ever sacrifice them. If they are down to 2 or 1 models a squad then keep them safe, hide them somewhere. Then on turn 5, turbo boost to contest.
If the terminators deep-strike near you be afraid. But don't overreact.
They can't sweeping advance, so unless they kill the full squad you WILL get WBB if your lord's around. After they teleported in you may want to shoot at them with everything you've got and make sure your units are more than 12" away. Move those that aren't and keep the distance if they survive.
Thousand sons and their armor-piercing long distance shots on the move can be very annoying. But they are slow and few and thus aren't any real threat to you.
If you didn't find the time to down them before they come in rapid-firing range then you might as well assault them with some warriors and the lord. You'll have the upper hand there definitely. But at least do something, because 7 rapid-firing inferno bolters _do_ suddenly pose a threat.
The dreadnought shouldn't be a problem.
If he slogs him up the field for close combat just make sure he never reaches you. Block the path with your monoliths and glance-immobilize it once you find the shots for that. Your flux arc will probably be soon enough though.
If it's a ranged dreadnought those heavy weapons can be nasty, like a plasma cannon, for example. But since his gun is mounted high up you can probably deny line of fire to your warriors with your monoliths. Your destroyers can target that guy as soon as they took care of the rhinos.
The defiler, well... If he slogs it up the field for close combat then you'll have to immobilize it. If it stays back your destroyers may want to glance-destroy its battle cannon. If he doesn't have indirect firing upgrade you can probably block line of sight with your monoliths. If he does have the upgrade you will at least increase his scatter. Target this thing with your destroyers once the rhinos our down, but don't take any too big risks.
The daemon prince will just have to die to many, many shots. The destroyers will come in handy here too. Be careful if he is winged, because he will be in assault range rather fast. But he will also face the concentrated firepower of your warriors pretty much on his own, so...
Don't go for objectives too early if there are any. The destroyers can contest the far ones and your warriors will probably get to the near ones if you start running on turn 4. Doing it earlier will mean being nearer to the enemy, and you don't want that. He won't be caring much for objectives but go for phase out.
Hide warriors behind monoliths on set-up.
Shoot rhinos with destroyers as soon as possible and try to move the monoliths (only this once) and particle whip anything in range at will.
Target defiler (until battle cannon destroyed and/or - if charging - until immobilized) then dreadnought (until plasma cannon or other dangerous weapon destroyed and/or - if charging - immobilized) with destroyers, particle whip Chaos space marines with monoliths.
Concentrate enough fire on terminators to completely eradicate them on the turn they deep-strike.
Train your entire warrior phalanx on the deamon prince once he comes into range. (If he is winged and within 18" you may find that you will be assaulted anyhow and should rather walk up into rapid-firing range and go for it all or nothing.)
Shoot (or even assault with lord and warriors) the thousand sons as soon as you have the time. Otherwise ignore them first. They appear dangerous, but they only want to play.
Starting running towards objectives on turn 4 and turboboost to contest any with your surviving destroyers on turn 5.
You're bound to win. Good luck anyhow! And have fun.
Hmm, my thought was more that Heavy Destroyers can Penetrate and destroy the Dread/Defiler, which is something Standard Destroyers cannot do. Dropping a mono and a warrior squad for either 2x4 standard destroyers, or 2x3 heavy destroyers probably wouldn't hurt though. I'm usually not big on having two monoliths in 1.5k. Granted your opponent can't destroy them until he hits melee, and only then with the Dread or Defiler. One should be enough indestructible madness.
Well thank you both for your help. I think I will go in favour of the heavy destroyers, because I used them before against the same guy, and they pwned. However, It never occured to me to screen my warriors with my liths to stop the defiler becoming an issue. Awesome! Im worried though... what if this time he brings a vindicator!? Lith: Downed. In regards to the dual lith, in our previous battle besides the heavies the lith was the only thing that did any damage. Hell, he had a spaz attack last time when I used a lith when he didnt expect it, emagine his reaction when I bring 2 liths after having walked for an hour to get to the store
Unfortunately I only have 3 heavies... so I think the list now looks like this:
TY! Ill try write a report, but I can still read comments untill 10am tommorow (GMT) so keep em comming!
Sorry to keep you guys waiting... I've been busy trying to sell my opponent my defiler for £20 since the battle (yes, I play chaos too...). But anyway, I tried to video the battle for youtube, but the audio quality was poor and we didnt film the last 2 turns. Anyway, here goes:
I deployed all of my warriors (4x10 men) In a phalanx, lord at the center, screened by two liths in one corner of the board. On the other side, in heavy cover, were 3 heavies.
My opponent deployed, opposite my phalanx, 7 1k sons in a rhino, a dp with wind and gift of chaos,10 foot slogging marines, and 10 marines in a rhino. Opposite my heavies he deployed a defiler and a plasma cannon nought. He kept 5 terminators in reserves.
TURN 1: I went fisrt. Everything moved up. A monolith destroyed the 1k sons rhino, whilst the other killed half of the foot-slogging squad. The heavy destroyers left their cover and risked staying in the open to take a shot at the defiler... and missed. My opponents nought went insane and tried to carve a hole in his defiler too, but he also missed. My friends defiler moved up and tried to shoot my warriors, but missed, and his 1k sons ran like usain (sp) bolt, rolling 6's for movement and running!
TURN 2: Everything moved up some more. Hevy destroyers took another shot at the defiler, but they cant shoot for **** and all missed again. I split some warriors and the lord from the phalanx to try and gauss the defiler, but they failed again, thanx to the 5th edition tank busting rules. Whilst half of my phalanx was unguarded by the res orb, my opponents dp slunk past the liths and assaulted a warrior squad... killing 2 warriors. FAIL!
TURN 3: Liths pulled everything out of combat. The daemon prince suffered about 54 gauss shots and withered away, whilst the defiler suffered shots from the other warriors and the heavies. After a small dispute with references to previous games, the defiler lost all of his weapons but the battle cannon.
TURN 4: Heavies blew up the dreadnaught after a storm of gauss flayer shots fell the defiler. The liths messed up his 1k sons and 20 warriors sat there... and did nothing.
At this point I remembered that the game was an objective game, and dispatched ten warriors to foot slog to the other side of the board to take the objective that the heavies had been deployed by. Meanwhile, the heavies flew towards an objective held by the 2 remaining thousand sons. And to make things worse... my opponent deep struck 5 termis to hinder my otherwise unscathed foot slogging warriors.
TURN 5: The warriors got into range of the objective they were sent after, but were engaged by the terminators, leaving one objective contested by each player. The liths were so tall that one of them managed to contest an objective on the roof of a building. Yet another contested but not taken. Near enough 20 warriors held an objective that was originaly central to the phalanx. Me 1: opponent. The monoliths finished the tousand sons off, and freed up that objective, but couldnt teleport warriors into range. A squad of CSm held the remaining objective, and their transport tank shocked my destroyers, preventing them from reaching the one held (untill recently) by the 1k sons.
Game ends: 1-1 : Draw (boring...)
Im sorry about how rubbish the report was... but as I said, It was originaly going to be a video report. Next time I wont mess it up... Promise!
Alright! Sounds like that game was some fun at least.
About Chaos dreadnoughts: this is _so_ hilarious. I've not seen them used very much. A friend once used one against me, then I saw one used in a video battle report and I read about your opponent's. And in each of these three instances has the dreadnought not done anything useful but instead tried to shoot its own brethren. I really burst out laughing every time this happens.
About the defiler: you mentioned some discussion with references to previous battles, etc. The rulebook clearly states that the _attacker_ decides which weapons are destroyed, if that's what your argument was about.
About your heavy destroyers: they have so few shots and are thus very unreliable. That's why I don't like them. You're very lucky your opponent didn't just target them first and killed all of them outright, denying WBB. Unreliability and vulnerability is a dangerous combination - a complete gamble. I readily forfeit their superior firepower for more reliability and resilience of normal detroyers.
These won't fail you as quickly. They will have trouble taking out the defiler, yes, but you glanced that one to death anyhow (something your destroyers can easily accomplish for you). Rhinos etc fall far more quickly. And if you take two squads of these you can target two vehicles in one turn. So maybe reconsider for your next game.
You got into close combat but he failed to put the hurt on you. This is very good for you but not very representative of Chaos marines. A squad with a power fist has too good a chance to sweeping advance your warriors, let me break it down for you:
10 Chaos marines with a power fisted champion charge 10 Necron warriors. The Chaos marines shoot their pistols and kill a good one warrior. The Chaos marines kill 2.25 warriors on average before those can strike back. 7 warriors strike back and get lucky if they kill but one marine. Then the champion strikes and kills at least another warrior. You will be forced to roll on an effective Ld of 6-8, leaving you with about a 50% chance of failing. If you do fail you have only a 1 in 6 chance of successfully breaking off without suffering a sweeping advance.
So if your squad gets assaulted there's a good 40% chance of them getting killed outright without and WBB rolls allowed. That is too much of a risk to take for my taste. So really, really watch out for CC. If you get can't avoid being assaulted then at least try to avoid power weapons or monstrous creatures or walkers - just anything that ignores armour saves - and maybe put the lord in that fight, because he can actually deal some damage back and therefore increase your chances of succeeding at the morale test. Though this is risky as if you fail anyways the lord will be sweeped too.
Good game! Thanks for taking the time to report on it. And never underestimate a draw! They have become quite common in 5th edition, and they somehow are the most pleasing result for both players anyhow, both realizing that it was a close, tough, and fun game, and that both did well and neither did anything really, really stupid (or else he'd have lost).
Hope you get to play another one soon. Purge those creatures of the Warp!