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Farseer - Doom, Runes of Warding
6 Fire Dragons
Wave Serpent - Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones
10 Dire Avengers - Exarch, Shuriken Catapult, Bladestorm
Wave Serpent - EML, Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones
5 Dire Avengers
Wave Serpent - EML, Spirit Stones
10 Storm Guardians - 2 Flamers, Warlock, Destructor
Wave Serpent - EML, Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones
Fire Prism - Holo-fields
Fire Prism - Holo-fields
Fire Prism - Holo-fields
Farseer rides with the 5 Avengers, casting Doom without getting himself into danger, the Dragons and the Storm Guardians gun forwards towards hot targets, while the 10 Avengers plod in a bit slower and clean up messes. Prisms stay at the rear blasting away, and hopefully surviving with holo-fields. I'm tempted to use the tactic of reserving everything (thank you very much fritz) because I have so few units and they are relatively fragile. What do you think?
One thing to possibly change is dropping the holofields on some or all of the fireprisms to pill out the 5 man DA squad. I love mech reserves, if you plan on doing it alot you might want to invest in an autarch or Yriel for the +1 to your rolls.
Drop all the Holo-Fields, all you're doing is making sure it's shaken/stunned all game.
Storm Guardians are't so hot. They aren't even good in CC IF they make it. The best part of the unit is the Flamers but there's better ways to deal with hordes that Eldar have.
Max your other DA squad, they suck so bad without Bladestorm and a high shot count.
I'd switch the Shuriken Cannon to a Scatter Laser. More shots with TL is nice but it's a minor point.
Seriously?! Yeah if something penetrates my armour it makes it more likely to be shaken/stunned, but out of the other 4 dice rolls 3 of them (wep destroyed, wrecked and explodes) make sure it ainbt shooting ever again, so the Holo-fields stay.Drop all the Holo-Fields, all you're doing is making sure it's shaken/stunned all game.Aye, theyre not quite Avengers or Scorps or Banshees or the better horde killers, but their advantages are 1) they are a troops choice, 2) they are relatively cheap (92pts for the unit not including the warlock is cheap enough) and 3) they are great for late game turbo boost objective grabbing, in turn 5 turbo boost into your enemies back objective, if the game goes on, jump out, flame, shoot and charge. It may not be the strongest, but against a back objective unit its good enough.Storm Guardians are't so hot. They aren't even good in CC IF they make it. The best part of the unit is the Flamers but there's better ways to deal with hordes that Eldar have.Have you heard the common disagreement about the 2 main ways to take Avengers, one is 10 guys with Bladestorm, who jump out and kill stuff as you've said, the other is 5 men bog basic, who sit in their transport at the back popping off missile shots and keeping my back objective safe. I decided to go with one of each, really take advantage of the eldar method of specialisation.Max your other DA squad, they suck so bad without Bladestorm and a high shot count.True, Scatter Lasers are better, but my logic behind the Cannon is that its cheap, and since the Dragons are gonna want to be way up in the thick of things, the tank is gonna attract a lot of fire and aint gonna last long, so the cheaper it is the better.I'd switch the Shuriken Cannon to a Scatter Laser. More shots with TL is nice but it's a minor point.
Please don't think I'm being harsh or not taking criticism well, because I do welcome all advice, it just so happens I have already thought these specific things through very thoroughly
To be honest Fire Prisms are maybe the most over-rated tank in the game. It has such potential but it's just easy to shake and stun. All Holo-Fields do is make you pay more points for a tank that does nothing unless you get Turn 1 against MANY armies. Basically some Orks and some 'Nids won't thrash it around and those would be bad builds for those armies.
I recently suggested to the local Eldar player to try three Wraithlords over 3 Prisms and he's having much better results in the handful of games he's played since than. Not saying they're out right better but Prisms just scale down in usefulness with the size of the game.
I can see the application of the Storm Guardian unit and like I said, I do like the Flamers. I take it back now that unit has somewhat grown on me. Reminds me of my special weapons squad in a Vendetta.
Still keeping my stance on the DA's. A Guardian unit can do the same job as them for cheaper and do more damage. There's just better babysitter units, DA's are beasts when they roll down a flank and Bladestorm for limited or no return fire. Their only advantage is the Wave Serpent and Wave Serpents don't do much damage, they're just very reliable transports.
This is very similar to what i want my 2000 pt list to look like. The selling point on storm guardians is that they are a troops choice. Troops win games. And the 5th ed rules provide such a cover hammer to anyone with infantry that the flamers can DEVASTATE. i play orks too...
I run 2 prisms and a falcon with a scatter laser. all with holofields. I take the scatter laser because, the way i see it, 4 str 6 shots at 36in range is a lot better than 3 at 24 for a tank that will primarily be shooting at vehicles. Ap doesnt matter then. The Falcon is the only tank that i ever even consider moving less than 7 inches in a turn, because the high str barrage is...well...the jam, one could say. I like my prisms and the taboo about shaking/stunning them is a weak one at best. they have 12" of range on the majority of heavy tank-killing guns (las/auto cannon, pulse laser/bright lance, etc.). Thats not to say you wont see a triple-hydra list from time to time...
As far as the holo-fields? Boo to the naysayers. holofields are what make an eldar heavy tank an eldar heavy tank. think about it. you roll two dice. the numeric odds say that one will be a 1,2,3 and one will be a 4,5,6. and that means that if those odds hit like they should, two thirds of the time the tank is suffering no permanent damage. they have won me games. very few times have any of my holofield tanks been destroyed. crippled to a point of uselessness, yes. once or twice. but rarely gone so far as to give up a kill point. as far as im concerned, the base price for all heavy tanks is 150.
The Dires are great. i run three units in serpents with TL. EML and stones (oh yeah stones on all heavies). i put six in each squad with an exarch with bladestorm and 2 shurikats. no sense wasting the points on defensive/assault gear for a specialist unit. these are your sick shooty elites that still score and have aspect warrior stats. If they get into close combat then so be it, you caught a bad break or played em wrong. I like your idea of 2 dires and one guardian. I personally like having the mental versatility of three similar units but i could still see it working. I tossed and turned over the storm guardians and i finally decided that they were better off left for the 2000 point list.
The fire dragons are great. Never leave home without them. If youre dead set on the triple fire prism idea, ill support it, because i love fire prisms, but ive gotta at least pitch the falcon. if you take a falcon, you put your most devastating anti-armor (i.e. often-times game winner) unit (the fire dragons) into a ride that the overwhelming odds say will only be damaged to a point where it cant shoot over 80% of the time. i personally run 5 fire dragons but that was mostly a point-cost issue.
My HQ is Eldrad. He is just too good and i want to really exploit the psyker stuff, because it is so, so good. Being able to redeploy between 2 and 4 units in a pitched battle/dawn of war game is DIRTY. a major strength of your list, however, is that in taking such a cheap HQ choice and skimping a bit on gun upgrades and spirit stones you managed to work in a 7th tank. this pleases me... I did not know it could be done. the extra target changes the game to your advantage no matter how you look at it. My only Suggestion on your HQ is that being able to cast fortune on your grav tanks on a turn when they are in a position to turboboost (typically once or twice per game when im playing) is nice. Rerollable cover save is a thing of beauty... Put eldrad in one of three wave serpents, turboboost around to an obvious flank with fortune on each. Fire prisms sit back and nuke, fire dragons sweep in for a potential first-turn land raider kill? if not, falcon picks off rhinos with 4xstr6 and 2x str 8 from 36 inches!?!?!? let your opponents frustration and anguish BEGIN!! I love me some mech eldar...
But thats just like, my opinion man... Good list. Cheers!
I agree with most of your points except the Fire Prisms. A table is only so big and there is often no where to hide with True LoS. Many armies have moving 24-48" guns. A Fire Prism is VERY easy to shake. You almost have to take 3 for them to do anything, I've never seen one get a combined shot off against a good player/list except Turn 1. The best you get is sometimes two get knocked around and one gets to fire.
They just aren't reliable. Against a lot of armies you're dumping all your Heavies and a ton of points into medium strength gun magnets. Woooooh.
but if were talking about the grander scale of the game, at some point in your fleet's expoilts you will run into bugs or orks or the like and they wont be able to touch your heavies and you will slowly eateth them. i get the point that they are easy to shake and therefore the link shot is rare and double/triple shots are uncommon, and yes they struggle to keep up in games against mech and static/cover armies, but i still like em. they get the job done right more often than not and i would say i play with kids that know what theyre doing.
also, (and this one is so big that it warrants its own paragraph) holofields make them a kill-point saver. reapers will get taken care of with relative ease as many static units often do these days against good players. the guardian platform is, well, i dont wanna hurt its feelings. wraithlord certainly has his flaws, but it could be argued that he is a tough killpoint to get. and walkers can be dispatched if the right unit gets into them with firepower/assault. Prism, however, is EXTREMELY difficult to kill. think about it. you have to roll extremely high on 2d6 or hit it 4 times with an unlikely immobile/weapon to snag the point.
And speaking of assault, the fire prism has no incentive in ANY turn to go less than 7" and be moving at cruising speed for the purpose of assault (i.e. allowing hits on 6's only). pretty crucial in my opinion for the snikrot/zagstruk ambush, the ravener/lictor rush, the vanguard aerial assault, or any other close-combat unit that somehow manages to outsmart you and get into your battery of heavy tanks.
I fall back on the fire-prism for my heavy choices for these reasons, and because it fits my full-mech fluff. if youre sticking with mech, youve gotta take heavies and i say prisms are a go (2 and a falcon for your dragons is, of course, my suggestion).
Again, just my take on the matter. walkers fully strapped with scatter-lasers is nasty. wraithlord can slaughter things and has BS4 long range guns. the choice is yours...
Prince of Excess what do you prefer for your heavies in full mech? how about from all of the heavy choices?
Orks and 'Nids can easily shake a Prism. Orks have Lootas, often lots of them. Also Outflanking Kopters, Rokkits and lucky PK attacks, oh yes they happen.
Bugs have Venom Cannons, I'd say Bugs are weakest against them in horde form, the stompy list doesn't even really care about Prisms they'd probably go for the Serpents.
Holo-Fields make it hard to grab if it also has Stones unless someone gets to the rear where it's easier to penetrate. 2-3 pens will probably result in an Immobilized or Weapon Destroyed, which renders the Prism either grounded and in danger, or useless.
I'd I was playing a Mech Eldar army I'd go for Wraithlords with EMLs or BLs and a Diresword or no Heavies and just spam Troops.
I don't know why Eldar NEEDS Heavies like IG or Marines do. Their transports can threaten all armor, DA's and a lot of other units can really punish hordes and you're still very low on KPs.
Like I said I'm partial to Lords though. A lot of armies have very few guns that reliable wound T8. He basically counts as armor, only heavies and some special might hurt him while small arms bounce off. It also brings some nice CC ability and a fantastic tar pit. I guess it kind of wrecks the "mech" theme but I was always a bigger fan of winning than themes.
I've said this 50 times: Fire Prisms do not suck. They just have a very very glaring weakness and cost to much for my taste. They can punish some armies and are just nasty in low point games. They will also draw fire every single turn so your Serpents can make it through but that's what you're going to have to win with in most cases.
Don't listen to all that anti prism junk. It's a very well thought out list of how each unit will be used. The only thing I would consider now is to drop the spirit stones to upgrade the dragon serpent's TL S.Cats to the S.Cannon to provide more of a threat. As previously mentioned the prisms may be the priority targets and thus defensive upgrades will be wasted if they are not being attacked.
As for the prisms vs WL:
You can't disregard something because you're afraid it will get hit and might die and if you want anti tank you'll find nothing better than linked focus or linked blast to nuke marines or other juicy expensive squads. The benefit w prisms is that the enemy cannot hide from them, with 3 on the board a large portion of firing lanes will be covered and they will not know which ones will deal the world of hurt. Furthermore, bright lance is only better than a single focused prism shot at AV 14 which is fairly rare. In all other cases the prism is better and is easily better if linked vs any armor due to the AP1 and higher str.
As well, tyranid VCs, ork shooting & melee damage is very insignificant and should not be a reason to take WL over prisms. Most decent players are able to avoid melee anyways - just fly away and they'll spend another turn or 2 chasing it, find it very hard to get hits, or end up selecting another target. Again, not a reason to disregard prisms.
If you're going mech go full out or don't do it at all otherwise your WL will suffer from wraithsight without a psyker babysitter or will see nothing other than the backside of the rest of your mech army as they're left behind.
Even if they do focus fire your prisms the rest of the army & vehicles will be left unmolested and able to do what they do best whereas w WLs you arrive peicemeal and can be picked apart. I also say keep the holofields - this makes your army VERY resilient to fire regardless of the AV 12 average due to the holo & energy fields. Sure, even if they are shaken they aren't destroyed this denying KPs while you rack up the kills.
Finally, with so many waveserpents you should be using them to block LoS after dropping off the unit - either from small arms fire for the unit or some anti-tank fire to support the prisms to increase survivability.
The WL firebase I think is best taken a min sized defender guardian + warlock unit + EML as a very strong objective holder with good anti tank, resilient to fire with conceal and anyone would think twice before charging with massed shuriken fire, dual flamers & a monstrous creature as a bodyguard for the guardians. This wouldn't really have much of a place in a mech list.