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  1. #1
    Member DMAlessi's Avatar
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    Competetive 1500 new codex

    HQ:
    Archon-Husk Blade, Shadowfield, Soul Trap


    3 haemonculi- agonizer, 2 scissorhands


    Elites:
    6 incubi


    Raider- dis




    4 Kabalite Trueborn- 4 blasters


    Raider


    Troops:
    9 Wyches- Shard net and impaler


    Raider-dis




    9 Wracks


    Raider-dis




    9 Wracks


    Raider-dis



    Heavy Support:
    Ravager- flicker field




    Ravager- flicker field




    Ravager- flicker field



    TOTAL: 1500


    Archon goes with wyches to hunt MC/ICs


    Haemy with agonizer goes with incubi to go after meqs and other high save models


    2 Haemys with scissor hands go with wracks to go after pretty much anything else


    Trueborn and ravagers hunt armor and thats about it


    Any criticism is welcome as I want this list to be competitive just keep in mind the general theme. Also I'm considering dropping an Incubi for some more upgrades and I'm still not set on Archon/ Haemy loadouts. tell me what you think


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  3. #2
    Son of LO
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    you may want to give all your raiders dark lances, so you have a better chance of popping vehicles, because once you lose two of your anti-tank skimmers, or at least two units of anti-tank. Your in trouble. Which unit do you think is better in close combat overall, wyches or wracks.
    thanks
    antique_nova
    Superior stamina may win battles, but the ability to quickly recover wins wars.

  4. #3
    Member DMAlessi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antique_nova View Post
    you may want to give all your raiders dark lances, so you have a better chance of popping vehicles, because once you lose two of your anti-tank skimmers, or at least two units of anti-tank. Your in trouble. Which unit do you think is better in close combat overall, wyches or wracks.
    thanks
    antique_nova
    point taken. I think it will take some playtesting to know if the anti-tank already in the list is enough.

    I've done some math-hammer analysis on wyches vs. wracks and wracks are better across the board. They fare better against MEQs, equally as good against guard and are generally more resilient. This list was originally 3 units of Wyches but 10 Wyches will not kill 10 marines even with the charge whereas Wracks will (not even counting furious charge from the haemys in the units). Wracks do get completely screwed by power weapons however, so the idea with the wyches is to take care of things with lots of power weapon/instant killing attacks.

  5. #4
    Member Silver's Avatar
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    Excuse me, but how will wracks kill 10 marines?
    Assuming you are using 9-man units of wracks, you will get 27 attacks on the charge. 13,5 hit and 6.25 wound. This results in 2 marines dead. Marines hit wracks on the same initiative. Sarge tries to hits twice with PF. I think, it is safe to assume that one wrack dies. Other 9 marines try to hit 9 times, actually hit 4.5 times, wound 2.25 times. After rolling fnp you get 2 wracks dead in total. CC is a draw. Second round will be worse because you don't get attacks from the charge.
    If you are charging chaos marines/space wolves/blood angels (especially if they have fnp) the results are much worse.
    Really, darling, you must not squirm so. It spoils the overall effect.

  6. #5
    Member DMAlessi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver View Post
    Excuse me, but how will wracks kill 10 marines?
    Assuming you are using 9-man units of wracks, you will get 27 attacks on the charge. 13,5 hit and 6.25 wound. This results in 2 marines dead. Marines hit wracks on the same initiative. Sarge tries to hits twice with PF. I think, it is safe to assume that one wrack dies. Other 9 marines try to hit 9 times, actually hit 4.5 times, wound 2.25 times. After rolling fnp you get 2 wracks dead in total. CC is a draw. Second round will be worse because you don't get attacks from the charge.
    If you are charging chaos marines/space wolves/blood angels (especially if they have fnp) the results are much worse.
    I don't exactly appreciate the tone in which this comment is written but I suppose I'll humor you anyway. 10 wracks vs 10 maines assuming the Sargent has bp and CCW. If you want to do the whole "well every unit of space marines runs with a power fist Sargent and we won't count that your wracks have furious charge or a haemonculous" then that's simply stupid. I just did 10 marines vs. 10 wracks to get a ballpark estimate of what kind of results I could expect.

    10 wracks vs 10 marines



    1. 2.5 charge
    a. 1.25 returned from space marines

    2. 1.5
    a. .94
    3. 1.33 (5.33)
    a. .73 (2.92)
    4. 1.17 (6.5)
    a. .62 (3.54)
    5. 1 (7.5)
    a. .52 (4.06)
    6. 1 (8.5)
    a. .42 (4.4
    7. 1 (9.5)
    a. .31 (4.79)
    So assuming Wracks get the charge 10 marines would die and 5 wracks would be killed in turn. This is after 7 rounds of combat of course but wracks will eventually win out. I rounded up to a whole model from .5 (in terms of casualties) for the point of simplicity but I did so for both space marines and wracks and it therefore shouldn't make a difference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DMAlessi View Post
    I don't exactly appreciate the tone in which this comment is written
    I am sorry if I've offended you in any way - I did not intend to. I just wanted to understand your opinion.

    I did not count on heamy being in squad because a haemy can also be joined to wyches to gove them fnp - and the original point was about comparing wyches to wracks. That's why I thought that it would be more correct to assess the performance of wracks without haemy. Also, in my gaming environment almost every squad of marines has a power fist. That's why I thought it would be more correct to count on it being in the squad.
    And I think that it really changes the results.
    Really, darling, you must not squirm so. It spoils the overall effect.

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    Member DMAlessi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver View Post
    I am sorry if I've offended you in any way - I did not intend to. I just wanted to understand your opinion.

    I did not count on heamy being in squad because a haemy can also be joined to wyches to gove them fnp - and the original point was about comparing wyches to wracks. That's why I thought that it would be more correct to assess the performance of wracks without haemy. Also, in my gaming environment almost every squad of marines has a power fist. That's why I thought it would be more correct to count on it being in the squad.
    And I think that it really changes the results.
    No worries, my hangover is probably not helping either. Read my first comment a little more carefully, the haemy is not included in any way. The analysis is just 10 Wracks vs. 10 Marines (Sargent with bolt pistol and CCW). Just for the purposes of including the power fist did I mention including the haemy as the point totals are already very stacked in favor of the marines (170 for 10 whereas wracks/wyches are 100).

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    If your kitting a unit of Wracks up for assault, I'd run it 9 Wracks, Acothyst - Agoniser, Haemy - Agoniser.

    price is 230 with the flamers (one on haemy, one in unit), but the damage output is very nice, as you start with furious charge, and thats comparable to the price of a space marine squad. Won't do the maths hammer, but thats 2 marine dead from agonisers + whatever the other manage to kill (2 more i think from above). So assuming you flame them first, you should get 1 flame that pens there armor, and 1 that doesn't, so you'll; probably kill 3 marines before you hit combat as well. That sets you up fairly well to win combat in there turn. 3 Dead, charge, 4 more dead, win combat, assume the 3 left kill 2-3 guys, hopefully they pass leadership and then you kill them off in the next go.

    Wether Wyches are more effective is open to debate, they play a slightly different role in the army then the haemy's do, and can be run cheaper and still be effective (as you have done).


    As for your list itself, you've gone overboard on haemoculi. Its not needed. Wracks already start with a pain token, so have FnP, and they don't need Furious charge THAT desperately. Do the maths-hammer on whats more effective in the long run. The Haemys, or 2 liqi's the extra wrack and the acothyst with agoniser. ( Should be roughly the same points as a haemy).

    Also, your archon is a bit expensive, i'd drop soul-trap and take agoniser. free's up points elsewhere.
    Last edited by Zidi; October 23rd, 2010 at 18:42.

  10. #9
    Member DMAlessi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zidi View Post
    If your kitting a unit of Wracks up for assault, I'd run it 9 Wracks, Acothyst - Agoniser, Haemy - Agoniser.

    price is 230 with the flamers (one on haemy, one in unit), but the damage output is very nice, as you start with furious charge, and thats comparable to the price of a space marine squad. Won't do the maths hammer, but thats 2 marine dead from agonisers + whatever the other manage to kill (2 more i think from above). So assuming you flame them first, you should get 1 flame that pens there armor, and 1 that doesn't, so you'll; probably kill 3 marines before you hit combat as well. That sets you up fairly well to win combat in there turn. 3 Dead, charge, 4 more dead, win combat, assume the 3 left kill 2-3 guys, hopefully they pass leadership and then you kill them off in the next go.

    Wether Wyches are more effective is open to debate, they play a slightly different role in the army then the haemy's do, and can be run cheaper and still be effective (as you have done).


    As for your list itself, you've gone overboard on haemoculi. Its not needed. Wracks already start with a pain token, so have FnP, and they don't need Furious charge THAT desperately. Do the maths-hammer on whats more effective in the long run. The Haemys, or 2 liqi's the extra wrack and the acothyst with agoniser. ( Should be roughly the same points as a haemy).

    Also, your archon is a bit expensive, i'd drop soul-trap and take agoniser. free's up points elsewhere.
    This is actually a pretty good idea and something I've been considering. It will take some playtesting/mathhammer to gauge the pros and cons of the change but I do like it. Dropping 2 haemys with scissorhands would free up enough points to take 2 liquifiers, an extra Wrack and an acothyst (sp?) with agonizer in each of the 2 Wrack squads and still have 10 points leftover.

    As for the Archon, soul-trap is less expensive than an agonizer so I'm not totally sure what the critique is. I'm not completely sold on the huskblade/soul trap combo yet but once again it will take some playtesting to see if its worth it or not.

  11. #10
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    Ah, i meant, swap husk and soul trap for agoniser.

    It's not the most killy thing in the world, but it does it's job, which is more of a supporting roll. It's also useful if he is running with incubi, as it means he can be the much needed 4+ power weapon for think high Toughness creatures that incubi will struggle to wound. It's just an all round useful weapon.

    Although, i'll have to stress, that my most common opponent is chaos marines...and demon princes have eternal warrior so instant death stuff normally gets quickly shuffled out of my lists lol

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