Welcome to Librarium Online!
Been kicking around a few builds in a testing environment and after some feedback I came up with this. Feel free to let me know what you think.
10 Grots w/ 1 Herder
30 Shoota Boyz w/ PK/BP Nob
30 Shoota Boyz w/ PK/BP Nob
30 Shoota Boyz w/ PK/BP Nob
3 Killa Kans w/ Rokkits
I realize a few things appear horribly wrong, allow me to give my reasoning. First off, where's the Big Mek?! Well I've honestly found a KFF to be very unnecessary when using all Infantry. Because of the rules for cover, it's pretty easy to get a 4+ on the whole army on a majority of tables. This includes the Kans, their model is pretty short and can be screened by Boyz without "advantageous modelling".
On the subject of the Kans, they fill a very nice niche, namely MOAR POWERKLAWS! While Koptas are very nice for blowing up tanks on Turn 1 (thanks to Scouts) it's not reliable and they're fragile. The Kans give me some ranged anti-tank/MC and do a good job of holding up units I don't want to deal with in bulk, like Hormagaunts. They can also be easily Reserved if I think the amount of anti-vehicle firepower across from me is overwhelming.
Beyond that, pretty standard Shooty Ork list. Ghaz is an awe inspiring charge deterrent and Lootas can kill most anything in the game with patience. Grots are in case I have to go aggressive, they can also be living cover in a pinch.
I'm mostly interested in what this build would be weak against or any possible ways to improve it. Have at it.
The main reason you normally take a KFF, is so the kan's get a 4+ cover save, and then the kans give the boyz behind them a 4+ save. Basically guarantees you 4+ cover saves all around, regardless of terrain on the board. For this to be effective though, you need a bunch of kan's to cover the front of your troops and create a "wall".This includes the Kans, their model is pretty short and can be screened by Boyz without "advantageous modelling".
I'm personally not a huge fan of loota's, as their inability to move and fire always causes me massive issues. It seems the majority of armies I now face pod/infiltrate/spore in on turn 1, or turn 2. This results in the loota's being utterly decimated almost instantly, and their points being a huge waste.
Your list could turn into a kan wall list with a few changes, but then it wouldn't be the list you posted. You'd replace ghaz with two KFF big meks, and two groups of loota's with 6 more killa kans, using the extra points for another group of grotz, or 9 rokkit's for your boyz.
I realize it could be a Kan Wall and how Kan Wall works, however the Kans are doing a different job in this list. I can still get 4+ cover all around, very few boards have no area terrain in Deployment Zones, or very near to them. Actually I can't remember the last time I played on a board that didn't have that. They're just there to get extra PKs and to hold up units that cannot hurt them, while giving me a little shooting. The reason I took them over Koptas was mentioned, they aren't the stars of the show.
I'm not sure why Lootas would ever care about Pods or Infiltrate, I have 90 Boyz that can stand in the way of any assault. There's no way to get around that except kill most of the Boyz, unlikely with such speed, or kill all the Lootas, unlikely with weapons that typical Infiltrate or Pod units have. Pods are especially ineffective if I can force the unit to be over 12" away from the Lootas with my mass of bodies, then they're just getting torrented and assaulted.
Drop pod/spore pods are designed to wreck havoc. They also never mishap, unless they scattered off the table. As such, with even a tiny amount of space, most drop pods can land directly where they want, which is usually adjacent to a batch of loota's. Then two heavy flamers hit, and the loota's are wiped out, or run off the board. (ironclad, av13 wall)
The boyz then have to stop mid stride, and deal with the threat, causing that particular mob to be stuck wasting a turn dealing with the mess.
Of course this happens in multiples, so basically your opponent does the absolute worst thing that can happen to a foot slogging list. He keeps you tied up for an entire turn or more, instead of allowing you to make way down the board. I've played some games, were so much stuff infiltrated and podded in, that my entire list never moved more then 12 inches the entire game. It's great when that happens in infiltration (you win), its awful in objective games.
With the loota's in your list disabled, or stuck in combat. You've lost all your anti vehicle except for 3 killa kans, which will be decimated by ranged anti tank, without a KFF to protect them. If I'm not mistaken, at least 50% of the vehicle needs to be covered to claim a cover save, and I don't think you could claim one from just some boys. Walkers use the vehicle rule for cover saves. It can't be partial, has to be 50% or more.
Your remaining anti vehicle would just be ghaz and the nobs with the boyz. You could get around this somewhat by filling your shoota mobs with rokkit's, but i still think you need way more mobile anti vehicle at that point amount.
Last edited by greggles; March 16th, 2011 at 15:53.
I'm really not sure what you're talking about. You can easily castle Lootas against Pods, one 30 man Boy unit per Loota unit. If the enemy has templates (non-Flamer) spread out a bit more but otherwise bunching them up is fine. Pod lands, flames some Boyz, that's fine. Now one of the Loota squads can see the Dreads rear, or will be able to if the Pod goes away depending on how it was deployed. If one can see the rear, the others can remove the Pod so it can be seen. I also have Ghaz who would love nothing more then to punch an Ironclad in half. An all out Dread Drop list puts 4 Dreads in your face, of some variety.
Alternatively I can just clump up in the middle and attach Ghaz to a Boyz unit centered but spread. The Dreads will probably land pretty close and I can assault/multi-assault, dragging Ghaz in with the free 6" Pile In later, not like an Ironclad has amazing assault ability like a Furioso and will run me off the board asap. Between Ghaz, regular PKs, Kans and Lootas, I'd say a Dread Drop list really isn't very scary. One Immobilized from a Loota unit nullifies that entire model and there will be 6 at the most. Hypothetically I can have Ghaz and friends take one, two other units take one (just to be safe) and possibly throw Kans at one as well, although that has risks. That leaves 1-2 unaccounted for but any Immobilization/Weapon Destroyed removes them as a threat to my Lootas for actually killing the unit off. That's also assuming A. No Pod scattered badly and B. there are avenues of assault through the huge melees I've created.
You are correct that Kans have to 50% hidden, but Boyz do that just fine. If there's ever a time when they don't have cover I'm either losing really badly, or using them in a way where I don't care if they have cover.
Just as a side note, double Flamers also means my opponent has made his list just for me, that's not a reasonable assumption where I play. Everyone has an all comers list for casual play and of course has one for tournament play. Thanks for the hypothetical though, it made me think about what I would actually do against a Dread Drop list.
Yes but in doing so, you are now giving any enemy unit the loota's fire at a 4+ cover save (if you are surrounding the loota's with boyz to protect them).You can easily castle Lootas against Pods, one 30 man Boy unit per Loota uniI'd have to disagree. Even surrounded by boyz, more then half the kan is above them. Either way, it would definitely be a roll off vs most opponents who would claim otherwise. I did some searches and I couldn't find anyone who claimed boyz could give kan's a cover save, mainly due to the obscured rules being different then the infantry cover rules. I did a quick comparison with mine, and I'd definitely say its not clear cut. It's not like the kan's giving the boys a save, which is easy to see.You are correct that Kans have to 50% hidden, but Boyz do that just fine.I generally play with SM having 3 pods, so 2 come in turn 1. The worst though is nids..when doom lands, I've lost 150+ points of loota's just like that. LD 7 is awful vs doom.An all out Dread Drop list puts 4 Dreads in your face, of some variety.Be wary. The ironclad would go first, and ghaz wouldn't have his armor save, just his 5+ cybork. Ghaz wouldn't die, but it would be conceivable he would lose a whole crapload of wounds. (iron hits on 4's, wounds on 2's, 3 attacks, init 4), and ghaz loses his +2 extra attacks due to defensive grenades.I also have Ghaz who would love nothing more then to punch an Ironclad in half.
But ya, i do agree you won't be in too much trouble with a drop pod list. I was just pointing out that loota's can be extremely vulnerable to such an attack, and I'd just suggest taking something else instead of 45 of them. Maybe just 30 loota's, or two groups of varying sizes, use the extra points on another 3 kans.
Maybe my Kans are a little off, they're on flat bases and their arms aren't crazy high in the air but most of my Boyz are, I think they look cooler that way. Hopefully that doesn't become an issue. ><
I'm aware Ghaz goes second to any Dread, but he can also get two turns of 2+ Invuln. If I take a charge and call the Waagh! after hits and wounds are rolled (which is legal) he should be fine, and then can charge again in my turn, or do whatever. That's why I think he's one of the best counter-attack options in the game, you can see what happened to him before deciding if he needs to pop that Invuln or not.
I can see where the logic of more Kans comes in, I think Kan Wall is a pretty good list and I would not make the mistake of thinking Lootas blow everything off the table. I made that choice because even with a 4+ cover, Kans are easier to deal with than Infantry. Most lists spam Meltas, Lascannons, Autocannons, w/e and they all work on AV11. However those guns will be at best removing 1-2 Lootas per shot, it's likely I can eliminate their guns before all mine die.
I'm also of the opinion Lootas are better than Kans at some of the things Orks struggle with, like MC spam or AV12 spam. Rokkits are good but you don't get to roll a lot of dice and it's easy for vehicles to lose their offensive output. A unit of Lootas rolling a 3+ for their d3 shots inflicts a lot more damage in my experience and that's why I chose to run more of them than Kans. Lootas also benefit from redundancy, 1 unit can roll a 1 or 2 for shots that turn, but three units is unlikely to whiff and let's me do easier mental math.
It'll probably just depend on who you play. I think most folks will be ok with it, but I'm sure some won't. Or they'll say fine, as long as they get the 4+ cover save from the kan's having to shoot through the boys.Hopefully that doesn't become an issue. ><Yes but you can't call that on turn 1. Also I thought you had to declare a waaagh during the shooting phase?m aware Ghaz goes second to any Dread, but he can also get two turns of 2+ Invuln. If I take a charge and call the Waagh!This is the main reason I started tucking rokkit's in with my boyz mobs. Now I generally have at least 9 rokkit's, which last pretty much the entire game, and even if the shoota's aren't shooting at a vehicle (i find they eventually do after wiping out all infantry in range), the rokkit's are still deadly vs T4 multi wound dudes, and 3+ saves.Rokkits are good but you don't get to roll a lot of dice and it's easy for vehicles to lose their offensive output.
Don't get me wrong, I think you've made valid points for your list. I'm just commenting cause I'm bored at work.
Ghaz's Waaagh! can be called anytime, because he's cool. Not on the first turn though, that's very correct. I just like that he can call for it if he takes....10 PW wounds for example. It's not like a Wolf Standard where you have to plan ahead.
I've tried Rokkits on Boyz in the past but relying totally on 5+ to hit depressed me. The only reason I like Lootas is because they can just riddle something with shot. But missing seems to be the Orky thing to do.
Anytime eh? Wow that just made ghazzy even cooler!
Oh and hitting on 5+ isn't bad when each mob fires 3 of them. You usually hit with one, and sometimes, you hit with multiple...and every once in awhile you hit with all 3 and your opponent starts crying.
One time I had an entire loota squad get wiped out, but for 1 guy, who somehow made his leadership save. The squad as a whole only ever fired 10 shots (group of 10). The last remaining guy fired 3 shots every round, for the rest of the game...blowing up a rhino, a dreadnought, and destroying the turret on a predator. MVP of the game! (He is in the queue to get his gun painted gold/bronze with tons of extra blitz).