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  1. #1
    It came from the warp... Fleeting Æther's Avatar
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    2000 Mixed Mech Altansar

    This is my most recent attempt at a 2K list using the 40K Metrics system to evaluate the relative value of all the units in the Eldar army. The tactics of this army are thus: Eldrad hangs back with the two Dark Reaper squads and applies Fortune and/or Guide to aid them in either firepower or survivability depending on the game state. The Fire Dragon Serpents flat out on turn one after being Fortuned by Eldrad to ensure the maximum chance to destroy those AV14 hulls the rest of the army has difficulty dealing with (yes, this leaves the Dark Reapers unshielded in the backfield for the first turn but unless the opponent has tons of 48" weaponry, this shouldn't pose a big problem as those weapons will most likely be focused on the Dragon's Wave Serpents.) The Dark Reapers will shoot missiles using fast shot at light armor until the enemies mobility is gone or severely crippled. After that they will target MEQ squads in the open if possible. The Storm Guardian Wave Serpents will stay out of harms way until the Fire Dragons and Dark Reapers have reduced the enemy to footslogging, then when possible, they will hop out and BBQ any isolated squads you are sure you can cripple beyond a threat or eliminate entirely, Doom will be a benefit here. The Nightspinner is there primarily to slow down any major assault or high mobility threats such as Terminators, large Ork mobs, and any jump pack units as needed, the added damage is just a bonus.
    ==HQ==
    Farseer – 95
    ---Doom, Runes of Warding
    Eldrad Ulthran - 210
    ==Troops==
    3x 10 Storm Guardians – 127[381]
    ---2 Flamers, Warlock, Destructor
    3x Wave Serpent – 120[360]
    ---TL Shuriken Cannon, Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones
    ==Elites==
    2x 5 Fire Dragons – 80[160]
    2x Wave Serpents – 120[240]
    ---TL Shuriken Cannon, Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones
    ==Heavy Support==
    2x 5 Dark Reapers – 217[434]
    ---Exarch, Eldar Missile Launcher, Fast Shot
    Nightspinner - 115

    Total – 1995

    40K Metrics Scores:

    Storm Guardian Squad
    DMS: 3.41[10.23]
    DMCC: 2.00[6.00]
    DRPG: 6.25[18.75]
    DLRPG: 1.25[3.75]

    Wave Serpent
    DMS: 1.03[5.15]
    DMCC: 0.00
    DRPG: 3.19[15.95]
    DLRPG: 0.00

    Fire Dragons
    DMS: 2.8[5.6]
    DMCC: 0.55[1.10]
    DRPG: 14.35[28.7]
    DLRPG: 9.70[19.4]

    Dark Reapers
    DMS: 4.86[9.72]
    DMCC: 0.60[1.20]
    DRPG: 8.65[17.3]
    DLRPG: 0.00

    Nightspinner
    DMS: 1.94
    DMCC: 0.00
    DRPG: 0.85
    DLRPG: 0.28

    Army
    DMS: 32.64
    DMCC: 8.30
    DRPG: 81.55
    DLRPG: 23.43

    Last edited by Fleeting Æther; September 9th, 2011 at 07:47.
    Scratchbuilding Fire Prism Crystals
    2K Mech Eldar in 2010: 25Win/4Lose/8Draw

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  3. #2
    Senior Member Dire's Avatar
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    I... don't really think Reapers can be even counted as reliable anti-tank. And just besides 2x5 suicidal Dragons you have... just... none...

    Okay, let's say this: this army can be a real wreck-frigg-ing ball against footslogger armies, but... current meta is quite the opposite and this armylist has got no tools to fight them. I know Mechguard is an extreme example and Nemesis of the Eldar, and yet you aren't an underdog when facing them - you are outwardly a loser in such match. And on tp of that, there are new dreaded Grey Knights, mech Blood Angels... I can see you competetively fighting Wolves... unless their Fangs have anti-DoW Razorbacks and/or Scouts, since they cannot stand firefight with 10 Reapers backed up by Nightspinner.
    Then again, they wouldn't try. They would target transports... and let the Grey Hunters with meltas safe in Rhinos do the rest.

    Not sure about the Dark Eldar... but still... regular Mechdar would just smash them, and there a lot depends on armylist, whether he has beast packs and protals, how he deals with Reapers etc.
    My beloved Eldar force, I'll judge your roster core. I appreciate your concern, You're gonna think and learn. Rep me... rep me, my friend.

  4. #3
    It came from the warp... Fleeting Æther's Avatar
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    101 (x2)

    Outside of Fire Dragons we don't have any reliable anti-tank period, and anything that is somewhat reliable tends to be very overpriced. The Dark Reaper Exarch with Fast Shot and EML is actually better at killing AV10-12 than an EML/BL Wraithlord, and once they're out of their transport, the Dark Reapers are much more effective at killing the Marines when cost is factored in. With a fully mechanized Eldar force, you gain lots of defense, but lack any sort of real offense outside of Fire Dragons and a large handful of S6 firepower, most of which is located on the very tanks we're trying to keep alive until we finish playing musical chairs. Against most marine forces, it is a matter of popping open a bunch of AV11 hulls to get to the MSU squads inside which most of the options in our codex can obliterate in a heartbeat. Obviously Fire Dragons are complete overkill for this and will be targeting AV12-14 depending on the situation, and as such can be left mostly out of the picture for this task. Which leaves us to the rest of the codex, a lot of which is horridly overpriced, and even more which can at best, penetrate a Rhino on an AP roll of 6.

    That doesn't sound like good odds to me, throwing all 5-7 of your Wave Serpents weapons towards a Rhino/Razorback trying to kill it, when there are usually 3-6 more like it on the board to take out of the game. So, what then, other than the above Dark Reapers, which, although not optimal, are very likely to hit with the two Missile Shots from the Exarch and three times as likely to penetrate as one of our S6 weapons.

    Here's the list I usually run with and it has served me well, but the number of Rhinos/Razorbacks on the table has started to overcome our ability to kill them.

    ==HQ==
    Farseer – 95
    ---Doom, Runes of Warding
    Prince Yriel – 155
    ==Troops==
    9 Dire Avengers – 140
    ---Exarch, Dual Avenger Shuriken Catapult, Bladestorm
    Wave Serpent – 110
    ---TL Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones
    9 Dire Avengers – 140
    ---Exarch, Dual Avenger Shuriken Catapult, Bladestorm
    Wave Serpent – 110
    ---TL Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones
    10 Storm Guardians – 127
    ---2 Flamers, Warlock, Destructor
    Wave Serpent – 125
    ---TL Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones, Star Engines
    ==Elites==
    5 Fire Dragons – 80
    Wave Serpent - 135
    ---TL Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones
    5 Fire Dragons – 80
    Wave Serpent - 135
    ---TL Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones
    5 Fire Dragons – 80
    Wave Serpent - 135
    ---TL Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones
    ==Heavy Support==
    Nightspinner – 115
    Fire Prism – 115
    Fire Prism – 115

    Total - 1992

    2x 9 Dire Avengers
    DMS: 1.68 [3.36]
    DMCC: 1.11 [2.22]
    DRPG: 0.00
    DLRPG: 0.00

    3x 5 Fire Dragons
    DMS: 2.78 [8.34]
    DMCC: 0.56 [1.68]
    DRPG: 15.28 [45.84]
    DLRPG: 9.72 [29.16]



    10 Storm Guardians + Warlock
    DMS: 3.45
    DMCC: 1.98
    DRPG: 6.25
    DLRPG: 1.25

    3x Wave Serpent (Shuriken Cannon)
    DMS: 0.63 [1.89]
    DMCC: 0.00
    DRPG: 1.88 [5.64]
    DLRPG: 0.00

    3x Wave Serpent (Scatter Laser)
    DMS: 1.25 [3.75]
    DMCC: 0.00
    DRPG: 2.92 [8.76]
    DLRPG: 0.00

    Prince Yriel
    DMS: 0.83
    DMCC: 3.89
    DRPG: 13.25
    DLRPG: 2.80

    2x Fire Prism
    DMS: 3.47
    DMCC: 0.00
    DRPG: 4.17
    DLRPG: 1.67

    Nightspinner
    DMS: 1.94
    DMC: 0.00
    DRPG: 0.85
    DLRPG: 0.28

    Army
    DMS: 27.03
    DMCC: 9.77
    DRPG: 86.98
    DLRPG: 35.16
    Last edited by Fleeting Æther; September 9th, 2011 at 04:13.
    Scratchbuilding Fire Prism Crystals
    2K Mech Eldar in 2010: 25Win/4Lose/8Draw

  5. #4
    Senior Member Dire's Avatar
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    Like it a lot, though again, there are some minor counter-optimal solutions.

    Yriel can die rather easily without Fortune. What's more, he has no proper unit to get in!

    I would also exnchange some Serpent weaponry in order to get something that can really pucnh AV12 at distance. Prisms aren't solid - only volume of shots is.

    Overall pretty solid, though nothing extraordinary. You will have ways to fight, I just don't think you can compete against GK, Guard and some other armies. But if you are not going tourney, way to go!

    EDIT:

    OVerpriced, not overpriced, without Seer Council/Warp Spiders/War Walkers it's your only way to go. A niche.
    Dragons are underpriced. Don't let point costs dictate the lack of balance in your army.
    Last edited by Dire; September 9th, 2011 at 12:02.
    My beloved Eldar force, I'll judge your roster core. I appreciate your concern, You're gonna think and learn. Rep me... rep me, my friend.

  6. #5
    It came from the warp... Fleeting Æther's Avatar
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    101 (x2)

    Here's another list, this time with some Falcons for potential APC busting at long range, and some Spiders for Deep Striking against rear armor. Yriel usually rides with a Dragon squad and hops out one turn after the alpha strike has been unleashed. Farseer will usually ride with the Storm Guardians to make their tri-flamer attack grossly effective.

    ==HQ==
    Farseer – 95
    ---Doom, Runes of Warding
    Prince Yriel – 155
    ==Troops==
    10 Storm Guardians – 130
    ---2 Flamers, Warlock, Destructor, Singing Spear
    Wave Serpent – 125
    ---TL Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones, Star Engines
    5 Dire Avengers – 60
    5 Dire Avengers – 60
    ==Elites==
    5 Fire Dragons – 80
    Wave Serpent - 135
    ---TL Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones
    5 Fire Dragons – 80
    Wave Serpent - 135
    ---TL Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones
    5 Fire Dragons – 80
    Wave Serpent - 135
    ---TL Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones
    ==Fast Attack==
    5x Warp Spiders – 127
    ---Exarch, Dual Death Spinners
    5x Warp Spiders – 127
    ---Exarch, Dual Death Spinners
    ==Heavy Support==
    Nightspinner – 115
    Falcon – 180
    ---EML, Holo-fields, Spirit Stones
    Falcon – 180
    ---EML, Holo-fields, Spirit Stones

    Total - 1999














    Prince Yriel
    DMS: 0.83
    DMCC: 3.89
    DRPG: 13.25
    DLRPG: 2.80

    10 Storm Guardians + Warlock
    DMS: 3.45
    DMCC: 1.98
    DRPG: 6.25
    DLRPG: 1.25

    2x 5 Dire Avengers
    DMS: 1.11 [2.22]
    DMCC: 0.56 [1.11]
    DRPG: 0.00
    DLRPG: 0.00

    3x 5 Fire Dragons
    DMS: 2.78 [8.34]
    DMCC: 0.56 [1.68]
    DRPG: 15.28 [45.84]
    DLRPG: 9.72 [29.16]

    5 Warp Spiders
    DMS: 2.41 [4.82]
    DMCC: 0.11 [0.22]
    DRPG: 7.22 [14.44]
    DLRPG: 0.00

    Wave Serpent (Shuriken Cannon)
    DMS: 0.63
    DMCC: 0.00
    DRPG: 1.88
    DLRPG: 0.00

    3x Wave Serpent (Scatter Laser)
    DMS: 1.25 [3.75]
    DMCC: 0.00
    DRPG: 2.92 [8.76]
    DLRPG: 0.00

    Falcon
    DMS: 1.25[2.50]
    DMC: 0.00
    DRPG: 3.75[7.50]
    DLRPG: 0.00

    Nightspinner
    DMS: 1.94
    DMC: 0.00
    DRPG: 0.85
    DLRPG: 0.28

    Army
    DMS: 28.48
    DMCC: 8.88
    DRPG: 98.77
    DLRPG: 33.49
    Last edited by Fleeting Æther; September 10th, 2011 at 11:05.
    Scratchbuilding Fire Prism Crystals
    2K Mech Eldar in 2010: 25Win/4Lose/8Draw

  7. #6
    Senior Member Dire's Avatar
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    Like the list a lot. Still don't know what's Yriel supposed to do, but I think with your permission I'd use it one of these days (when my own ideas fail). Got Dakka, may outflank (I mean strategically, not the special rule) Mechguard, got those 6 long range S8 shots... I'd personally swap Yriel for Jetbikes (or Yriel, Dragon Serpents' Scatters, Storm Guardian Serpent's Star Engines) in favour of whole another Storm Guardian unit in Serpent. But besides that, I really like the list.
    Last edited by Dire; September 10th, 2011 at 13:44.
    My beloved Eldar force, I'll judge your roster core. I appreciate your concern, You're gonna think and learn. Rep me... rep me, my friend.

  8. #7
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    Although I am not criticising your army list, which as a whole looks pretty solid for the most part, I think it would be foolish to put too much faith in this theory as a guide for building a list that is likely to allow you to win. I'm not sure it judges effectiveness all well since it is a theory based on the following problems.

    "Assuming that you are firing all your guns at optimal range with max firepower. Rapid firing at 12" with heavy/special weapons getting to shoot."

    "Not strictly correct according to the name. What we are measuring here, assuming the unit fires at non-covered Rhinos for 5 turns at optimal distance[...]"

    I am not going to continue with any more of these like minded quotes, but you can't based a theory where a assumptions are made at all stages. The true nature of a mathematical theory tests one assumption and seeks to create a hypothesis to fit one assumption. This makes a number of assumptions which ultimately skews these numbers quite significantly, and therefore (I don't think anyway) can be used an accurate guide to base your army upon. 40k is a fluid game of strategy and luck, not an effectiveness battle. I do not dispute the "dice in hand" theory. Quantity is often better than sheer power. But this theory is flawed beyond mathematical belief, since it does not fully address the complexities of the game.

    Play test
    Have as many dice in your hand as possible
    and pray for luck.

    The only way to win at 40k

  9. #8
    It came from the warp... Fleeting Æther's Avatar
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    101 (x2)

    I realize what you are saying and agree that it is foolish to build your list around the metric due to apparent list weaknesses that will pop up if using only the mathematically best units. It does however provide a good comparison of the relative abilities of each unit when used to their fullest, which is what both players are aiming to do in order to be the most effective in-game. The player that brings the most forces to bear on the opponent's forces first gains the upper-hand in the match, and picking units that are the most effective at this while covering all of the needs for a well rounded list will prove useful when facing an opponent who will be matching you move for move in terms of effective game play.

    40K metrics is just another tool in the list-building tool box,nothing more.
    Scratchbuilding Fire Prism Crystals
    2K Mech Eldar in 2010: 25Win/4Lose/8Draw

  10. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleeting Æther View Post
    40K metrics is just another tool in the list-building tool box,nothing more.
    This is very wise. But I would caution you to re-test this theories judge of "effectiveness" since so many hypotheses are made, I'm not sure the numbers are that accurate?

    However, play testing and math-hammer seem to identify a common trend, regardless of the misunderstanding of calculation hypothesis. Mech + Fire Dragons = Win. It's pretty much the only elites choice you're ever going to need

  11. #10
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    Why don't you scrap the nightspinner and dark reapers and take a falcon and 2 prisms instead . dumb one guardian squad down to 5 Dire avengers, and change all your flamers to meltas

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