Welcome to Librarium Online!
so ive been playing for a while and this list is possible the most competative ive played, even against some harder armys like Dark eldar it will give them a run for there money.
the list is:
hive tyrant with hive command
2 tyrant guard with bone swords
tervigon with toxic sacs and catalyst
5 hive guard
tervigon with adrenal glands and catalyst
3 trygon primes.
if anyone has some good suggestions id appreciate it
You really seem to be lacking anti tank. 2 Broods of Hive guard isn't enough by any strech of the imagination, and you'll be crushed into the dirt by heavy mech armies such as guard or Blood angels, even meched up orks will give you a lot of problems.
Aside from the lack of anti tank, your little guys seem to offer very little to the army. 16 un-upgraded hormagaunts? What exactly do you expect them to do? Also 18 termaguants isn't exactly wonderful, and a tervigon as an HQ is just a waste essentially.
Id don't think you need 3 trygon Primes either. Regular trygons are fine unless you need the synapse, and you really dont. Id be looking to drop 2 of these for tyrannofexs with rupture cannons. The extra anti tank will be crucial against a lot of opponents.
Id then advise you to lose one tyrant guard and the hormaguants. Get yourself adrenal glands on the tervigon and then make 2 broods of 25 termaguants. This makes your infantry far more of a threat whilst giving you some credible anti tank. If the points are left over, grab 2 TL devourers on the tyrant.
You could always go for harpies over tyrannofex's, which would leave a fair few points to spare, but thats a little harder to play. I personally prefer them though.
Your friendly neighbourhood gargantuan creature
the hive tyrant is fine, it is literaly there with 8 wounds to kill any thing that assualts my tervigon or guants, its slow i know but what i really like is the +1 to reserve and ability to outflank a tervigon which against any army is pain ful when you have a tervigon destroying your flanks. the hive guard are great at taking out tanks, i agree that its not as good as dark eldar but none the less there tough as nails and manage to take out 2-3 tanks each game. tervigon as a Hq is not as good as a troop a agree but i dont want to get another guant brood. as for the hormaguants at 16, it dosent matter that there are few of them, they assualt first turn and tie up a infantry squad for a turn or two, against mech they are still at the front lines really quick and when i inevitably take out the tanks the infanty are my pickings. 18 termaguants is simply just for the tervigon as a troop. this squad actualy isnt useless, they generaly survive for a while due to the fact that i sqawn so many more guants approx. 44 guants so they capture objectives for me. the trygons are no way near bad, the 18 strenght 5 shot into rear armour 10= dead tank, the trygons have so many hard to get rid of wounds that no enemy can kill them fast enough, when you have two on the field turn two, mech armies (which is what i verse) die becuase of the monsterous creature rule. trygon primes are really good, the synapse is almost useless but thats not why i take it, i take it becuase with three i can potentialy have 54 strenght 5 shots with monsters which are good all rounders.
i do not like tyranofexes. at 250 points base they are almost use less. compared to a trygon which i have seen single handedly wipe 1k off the feild the tyranofex has 2 strenght 10 shots at about 30pts extra. of the 2 shots 1 hits one may pen and it will maybe do something, a one in three chance, the chances are not as good as, first turn pop up 18 str 5 shots killing some things(infantry and any stray tank) next turn killing a tank almost garenteed. the only good thing about the tyranofex is that it has a 2+ armour save which most enemies ignore. tyranofexes are ranged units and at 250 pts dont have enough shots to be useful, the trygon has lots of small shots or 7 attacks on the charge against a tank killing it even if its a land raider.
for my army there is one dificulty and that is simply assualt terminators and there equivelents. i just cannot kill them (probably due to the fact my friend is simply the luckest guy on earth rolling 25 3+ saves agianst one guy and saving them all) their invunerable saves are crazy and even with swarm i struggle.
The fact that you even use the Trygons' ranged attacks worries me (with the exception of the turn they deep strike). The fast that you rely on their pathetic shooting to take out tanks is even more of a worry. If I were you I would listen to Heirodule's advice 100% - it's spot on.
I'd also like to clarify that the ranged attack of the Trygon Prime gives it 12 shots, not 18 - the Containment Spines replace the Bio-electric Pulse (check their army list entry). So that's a max of 36 shots per round - a good 18 less than what you were giving yourself. When you dispose of the needless Prime upgrades on two of the Trygons, it leaves you with but 24 shots. I would rarely recommend shooting with the Trygon, as that is not what it was built to do. Trygons aren't even really built to assault vehicles in melee (similar to all units in the codex), but more so to deal with threats such as Terminators and Assault Terminators. Also, how are you deploying your Trygons? Having a Prime foot-slog while two normal Trygons deep strike is very scary for an opponent.
It's also very unwise of you to write off the Tyrannofex. It is on par with the Trygon with its usefulness always, and easily makes its points back. It's tougher than Trygons, with 6T, 6W, and 2+ armour. It is the best ranged Tyranid we have in our codex. 265 points is a small price to pay compared to the amount of carnage it causes on the tabletop. It destroys multiple vehicles, with their combined cost sometimes doubling the Tyrannofex's, and it also has secondary but very potent anti infantry weapons - done dealing with that Battlewagon? Let's use the ESG and Cluster Spines to blow holes in that Ork horde. Or against mech, Dessicator Larvae is a real killer.
However, if you're going to go for an all out Trygon assault for your Heavy Support, then you need ranged back up. Specifically anti-tank ranged back up. This includes Harpies, but more so Zoanthropes. How do you manage to destroy Land Raider assault lines with a few S8 shots? Luck of the dice? Being able to always roll 6s with all your shots? Even then, the most you can do is immobilise them. You NEED Zoanthropes, and perhaps some Harpies as well. I cannot count the number of games that the Zoanthrope has saved my army's ass from Leman Russes, Land Raiders, Battlewagons and the lot. Their Warp Lances are begging for you to take them against mech, which is, as you said, what you're up against most of the time.
As for the Hive Tyrant and his two vegetable companions, I hope that at least you're equipping him with dual Scything Talons (free). You can't say no to 3+ to hit with re-rolls for free. And why the boneswords on the Tyrant Guard? Their rending claws will quite suffice for bringing ruination to armour, and ridding yourself of them can buy you another six Termagants (or guns for your Tyrant. More about that later). Generally, you don't have melee Tyrants foot-slogging (although this is partially personal preference, and with the exclusion to the Swarmlord), and instead you give them wings. If you're going to have your Hive Tyrant sitting around getting a tan until someone comes to him, not only are you asking for 5000kg of lead in your face, but you have nothing to reply with. If you're using a Hive Tyrant for that purpose, then ranged loadouts are necessary - that is, 2x TL Devs, or TL Devs and a Stranglethorn cannon. The Hive Tyrant is only a little less fierce in melee (no re-rolls to hit) but is now putting out very healthy amounts of firepower.
Heirodule's covered the troops section and what could be changed. What I would suggest in addition to this is to make sure you have both AG and TS on both your Tervigons (unless they're going to be holding hands the whole battle, along with the majority of your army). Just get rid of the Hormagaunts and replace them with Termagants, thus allowing your other Tervigon to be a troops choice.
Think about what we have said. Your list may seem brilliant to you right now, but if you let go and be more open to changes to your current build, your army could go from a list that can win at times if they face exactly the right army combinations to a potent force that can deal with most targets. It's like being a last meal cook for people about to be executed, and then telling them that the only main you have is sausages - great for people who love sausages, but not as good for the majority of other people.
As a side note, Venomthropes have their uses, but are no match for Zoanthropes in a Spore or Hive Guard.
1. the trygon only uses the gun when fleet is pointless.
2. the place where the trygon says that it replaces the bio-electric shock is badly written and i appreciate it being pointed out.
3. trygons are good at taking out tanks, they will generaly hit at least twice against fast moving tanksd and the mc bonus means that they are excelent. but against assualt terminators they are terible, even two trygons, do the math. 12 attacks, you kill 2.95, you take 8.75 wounds and loose combat you take 2 more wounds rounded up, which means that you other have two trygons on on 1 wound or one on 2, also most squads like this have a hq with them which finishes them off.
4. heres why i dont like tyranofexes;
a) if you take them with rupture cannon its split between two roles, ( also, there is NO WAY that the tyranofex is the best ranged anti tank, it is easily hive guard excluding zoe's which are basicaly shock troops) anti tank and anti infantry. against tanks, you get 2 shots, 1 hits, against armour 12 it should pen, but may not, also it may not do anything in the damage table, theres a 1 in 3 chance it will destroy it plus it may get cover saves.
b) its 265 POINTS!!!!!!!!
reasons why i would take one;
a) good anti swarm if you take flesh borer hive or acid spray
5. the hive tyrant is the one thing i have tested like crazy, now i know that you can take wings but i prefer foot sloging. the gun isnt as good unless you take onsluaght which you should remeber that it means that you cant give another unit fnp. today i versed grey knights the only thing that saved me was the lash whips so they are not going, if i want re- rolls 25 pts for EVERY nid model within 6" can make it quite dangerous meaning that the tyrant guard get it as well.
6. in what universe is rending as good or good enough against armour in comparison to power weapon, its only good for stealers becuase they have so many attacks and it makes them cheaper + good against tanks. truth is for 15pts your paying the same as a marine would but being so much better
7 i have tested hormaguants to the bone and they are excelent, now i see your point but no termaguant compares to a first turn assualt. although i do occationaly run without them
8. i have play tested most of the ideas that you have suggested ( the harpy is the only one i haven't and i have used a similar unit), as i have said things like tyranofexes are not good for me, i do agree that the zoe's are good and maybe in the future i will get some when they have a model or i learn to model well enough for getting a mycetic spore but other wise i will stick with my hive guard
9. i agree that venomthopes can be not as good, but when my tyrant gets a 5+ cover, its as good as a 5+ invun most of the time and annoys opponents to death.
My list is similar:
Tyrant w/Old Adversary and a single Dev (2nd Dev not worth Paroxysm). (For paroxysm and re-rolls)
Tervigon w/Catalyst, AG and TS (for awesomeness)
2 Venomthropes (for cover and whips)
2 Hiveguard broods - 2 each (for light mech)
3x Termagant broods - 10 each (for screening and meat shield w/catalyst)
3x Tervigons same as HQ (again, for awesomeness)
3x Trygons (not prime) (for sheer awesomeness, deep striking or not)
I want the Zoanthrope/Spore combination as it would be effective and I would also like Hive Commander on the Tyrant but I can't find the points.
I agree with jd7, Tyrannofex is not worth it. Shooting at a LR - it takes just over 6 turns (on average) to get your points back (assuming immobilize is a useful result, glances don't matter and no cover). No cover is really optimistic since you're just 1 model - not too hard to hide from. This army is purposely hindered in the ranged anti-heavy-tank department. Zoanthropes being the only effective way other than CC to deal with them (taking 2.4 turns with same assumptions as Tyrannofex to get their points back). Being hindered so - I wouldn't play to the army's weakness - trying to compete in that area is inefficient.
Trygon Prime upgrade is generally not worth it since 80 points later (on 2) and you've got a Hive guard or 2 - much more worth it. Only good if you need synapse - like you've got things using your tunnel.
If you're facing an army with lots of AV14 - good luck. Nothing besides CC will avail you. Don't try to build a list with range that can handle it. You'll lose to everyone else. For everything else - there's hiveguard.
Please try to use the enter key and some punctuation, it makes life so much easier for us reading your posts rather than gigantic walls of text that are a nightmare to sift through.
Secondly if you're just going to ignore us when we point out the flaws in your lists, why bother posting on a forum asking for advice? Vrrmick has given you a HUGE breakdown of what could be improved in your list, and I whole-heartedly advise you to listen to him, rather than disagreeing with him. Between us we've got one hell of a lot of experience using bugs and im sure anyone else looking at your list would point out the exact same flaws as we have.
Adressing some of your other points - Your maths is awful on the trygons. Nobody plays 10 hammer and shield terminators in a single unit. They just don't. What they do run is units of 5, possibly with a character, since the only good way to deliver them is with a landraider or storm-raven. In that case your trygons only take 2 wounds, not 8. Whilst your correct that trygons aren't ideal in fights against hammer/shield termies, thats why you take large horde units. 30 Termaguants buffed by a tervigon will beat terminators into the middle of next week, especially if you've got a tyranid prime in there too.
Secondly you have nothing to deal with land raiders. Nothing. This is why you need a tyannofex, because nothing in the army is going to take it out. What are you going to do against a monolith? Glancing it does absolutely nothing thanks to living metal. Same with GK running landraiders with fortitude. What would you do against gunlines? Hive guard have 24" of range. Mech IG, tau or DE will sit at the back of the board and blow you away, all the while you're unable to return fire. The tyrannofex is the only bit of long range anti tank we have, they form a vital part of our arsenal. Oh and taking them with an anti-infantry weapon is catastrophically pointless. You have an enitre codex that is great at anti infantry, but the T-fex comes with a couple of very mediocre choices that suffer from short range. Taking one for anti infantry is just silly.
The hormaguants - I don't know what you're doing but they can't get first turn assaults. Not only is the basic gap 24" at a minimum whilst your hormaguants maximum movement is 18" (your not taking the fleet roll as 3D6 right? Its 3D6 pick the highest. You might know that but frankly there's no other way that your pulling off charges turn 1.) Even if they do get the lucky fleet roll AND your opponent is stupid enough to move into range (because quite frankly no tactically adept opponent is going to move into hormaguants on the first turn) they're still far too weak to actually do anything! On the charge, with no casualties, they kill 3 Marines. 3. Against any unit that's even semi decent in CC, they will lose combat and die. Toxin sacs are a MUST on these, and if you really want them to be effective you need to look at a minimum of 20, with adrenal glands too. You claim to have tested these at great length? Between us we've been running them for years, trust us when we say they need toxin sacs.
Lastly you claim to playing against mech lists, yet your list has no way what so ever to deal with a decent mech force. What will you do against mech IG, who bring upwards of 12 tanks and sit at the back of the board, shooting you to death? What will you do against blood angels razorback spam, who will ride forward with 6 tanks, all with a lascannon and TL plasma gun on the top firing AP2 death at you? What will you do against DE venom spam, packing upwards of 108 poisoned shots and well over 20 Ap2 lance weapons? How about orks, with 3 battlewagons, all having AV14 and a 4+ cover save, whilst trukks speed forward into your lines? Or Space wolves, which when you finally get them out of their rhinos, assault you with some of the best infantry in the game and slaughter you to a man? The fact remains you have absolutely nothing to deal with a mech army and AV 14 will destroy you.
Frankly your list has some major holes in it and I encourage you to re-build, following the advice we give. We know what we're on about, and Vrrmiks huge summary is an excellent guide for you to build a competent list.
Your friendly neighbourhood gargantuan creature
Well spoken!Originally Posted by Heirodule
Another point I will add is that if you still blatantly disagree with us about our only decent anti-tank fire, at least use Carnifexes for taking them on in melee. Dual talloned Carni in a spore with Bio-Plasma (for something to do in the shooting phase) and AG will do you so much better than a Trygon if anti-tank is the reason you take them. S10 with 2D6 armour penetration is something well worth considering. I'd never use more than one of them, but they are the best when it comes to anti-tank in close combat. I still strongly recommend otherwise, but if that's just the way you play, so be it.