Welcome to Librarium Online!
Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!
Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!
I am playing in a store tourney in a few weeks, and I have always wanted to field an eldar army (i normally play marines for tournies and eldar for casual games). I need some critique on the army itself and any weaknesses/cheese factor. I know for a fact there are 2 marine players, 2 tau, a tyranid, a chaos, an imperial guard, and a necron player. Possibly a grey knights and sisters army as well. SO i need something balanced against most races.
The army is an Iyanden army (with a real ghost paint scheme, none of that cheery yellow and blue!).
Twin linked B.lances
1 Banshee Exarch
1 Wraithlord w/ B. Lance
1 Wraithlord w/ Starcannon
2 Vypers with Starcannons (seperate squads)
1 Fire Prism tank
16 Guardian defenders (i love how these guys count as heavy support......)
Last edited by csbassplayer; January 3rd, 2006 at 04:44.
Your army looks solid. You are gonna be outnumbered everytime, but you knew that when you decided on an Iyanden armyOriginally Posted by csbassplayer
I would probably shave off a few guardians and use the points to upgrade the prism to a Falcon.
First of all, I think the Falcon is a better tank, and second it can be used as a transport. You could stick your Banshees (and maybe the farseer if he is not to join one of the wraithguard squads) in the Falcon, that would free up the waveserpent for one of your wraithguard squads. All in all I think that would improve your army and make it faster.
my big concern is the guardian unit. I know the wraithguard are as tough as they come (for eldar), the lords are just to absorb fire (and maybe take out a choice unit or two). The banshees are for CC (DUH!) I have good flankers with the vypers 6 str6 shots can mess up units pretty quick, even with crappy 3 BS. The idea behind the guardians is to have them in front of a unit of wraithguard and a farseer in between them. Use the conceal/fortune combo to advance the guardians (and cut down on casualties). And then use them to fire at short range and have the FS use guide on them (can you say 32 str4 hits with rerolls?) or the wraith guard. I'm just worried that against shooty armies those guardians are gonna get roasted anyways, and my points are better spent on other troops such as scorpions (infiltrators), fire dragons (cheaper wraithguard, i use them for unit killing), or harassers (spiders). the fire prism was a cheaper alternative to a falcon. It has a nice gun, but the BS 3 is iffy. I just didn't want this army to seem TOO elite, and lose points on army composition (which is a factor in this tourney).
You make some good points. I agree with your concerns about the guardian unit. Also, it is very, very unfluffy for Iyanden to use guardians as meatshield for wraith units! If army composition score is a concern for you, you should certainly keep this in mind). Besides, wraithguard are not only tough by eldar standards. A concealed and fortuned wraithguard unit can soak up an obsene amount of firepower.
Besides, having a squad of guardians in front of the unit with the most dangerous gun in the whole game can blow up in your face in an instant. Jump troops and generally fast units are most likely capable of either moving or running close enough to your guardians before you have a chance of shooting at them. That will leave you with a large melee right in front of your wraithlords. You can try to walk around it, further slowing down your advance, or you can join the fight. However strong and tough wraithguards are they are not meant for prolongued fist fights, they are very expensive troops with just one attack each.
What I usually field is a 5 man squad in a waveserpent and a large 10 man squad that walks. The large squad has a conceal warlock and is joined by my farseer. This unit is so difficult to kill that it is not even funny. If you have the guardians to soak up casualties I suggest you lose them altogether. Getting rid of that guardian squad will give you exactly enough points to bump one of your wraithguard squads up to 10 man. Keep the warlock with conceal and let your farseer join the squad and cast fortune. That gives you a very solid center piece for your army. A unit that cannot safely be ignored and will take a surpricing amount of attention to get down.
If you want to add some harassers I suggest spiders (and the banshees in the Falcon as I suggested in my first post). They are wicked fast and in a tight spot they can do some light tank hunting.
I have sometimes used spiders to tie up units when my wraithguard are getting close. If I have an exarch with withdraw I have sometimes charged units and stayed in the fight until the opponents turn, then used withdraw. On my next turn I have moved the wraithguard up for the kill and sent off the spiders to haras something else. Keep in mind though, that since both spiders and wraithguard are so expensive units it is pretty rare to find a squadron expensive enough to make it worth it to keep the spiders in cc. If I include withdraw it is usually to get out of cc as soon as possible.
I don't like the idea of firedragons in an Iyanden army. The role they fill is too similar to your wraithguards. That will just make your army more two dimensional. Your army is not lacking in dangerous short range firepower as it is.
Playing Iyanden the biggest problem in my opinion is the fact that a very large part of your army is gonna be terribly slow. Wraithguards and Wraithlord are slow units. To make up for this you need fast units, like vypers, spiders, Falcon or stuff in waveserpents. The fast units serve two purposes: 1. they harass the enemy and keep them occupied long enough for your slow movers to catch up. 2. they can react to an enemy that tries to outmanouvre your slow units.
Sigh... why do so many of my posts turn out to be so long?
You are really trying to fit too much into your army,too many powers on the farseer, the banshee squad is not big enough and the fire prism - sign, ok
1 at all costs upgrade the prism to a falcon, the prism is the single most useless piece of junk in the current eldar codex.
2. Banshees: banshees are lethal charging MEQ units, but if the battle becomes protracted, they die and with the small numbers you have, that is likely, coupole this with the fact that they have to disembark from the serpent if they use it and stand around not charging and they become a pain rather than a lethal contraption!
Based on your list I would ditch them use the serpent for one of your wraithguard squads, (buy it spirit stones)
Drop probably mind war off the farseer, you then should have close to enough points to get your second wraithguard squad a serpent too
Everything you have been told is a lie!
VERY good information from the both of you. Especially the situation with the guardians, I didn't even think of that. I will retool my army (might take a bit considering I think my armies out a bit, last one took me a few hours to get down). Thank you VERY much.
The one question that remains though is what to do with the banshees. Assuming I upgrade the Prism to a falcon, and keep my wave serpent, I still cannot put more than 6 into the falcon (leaving me with the afformentioned small squad problem) should I just live with it, or is there aditional tweaking you can reccomend? Btw is there also any advice for disembarking as I know with the new rules you can't disembark and assault in the same turn (if the transport has moved). So what is the best thing to do? Sit in the transport and hope it doesn't get blown to hell, or get out into cover, and hope my diff terain tests aren't terrible?
Thanx for the kind words mate!
Its true that getting a larger squad of banshees would be highly advisable. One way could be to keep the two footslugging wraithguard squads their present size (5 man strong) and let the banshees keep the serpent. Cut away the guardian squad and use the points you gain to upgrade the prism to a Falcon and bump the banshees up to a more potent squad size. 10 banshees in a waveserpent is gonna worry any MEQ player.
Disembarking from a waveserpent sure is a lot less useful nowadays, and frankly there is no easy way to get around this. Your best bet is probably to park the waveserpent as much behind cover as you can manage and keep the banshees inside. Then exit next round before you move. It is terribly dangerous to disembark them and then wait a turn. Since you want to disembark where they can get into cc relatively fast you are also precariously close to rapid fire range... and banshees will not hold up to a round of rapid firing from a decent size marine or firewarrior squad.
The main problem is that when you race your waveserpent with 10 power-weapon-wielding-always-strike-first girls 24" right down the enemys throat you are immidiately promoting that squad to target priority 1. And since a waveserpent really is not built to withstand that kind of attention you could have a problem.
My suggestion is to use your wraithlords for what they really do best... namely scare the opponent. The further towards the enemy you can deploy your wraithlords the more threatening they will seem. This might just take some of the attention off the waveserpent. Vypers can be used to much the same effect btw. In other words you make a classic chess like sacrifice of one of your pieces in order to bring you in an overall better position.
Ofcourse, any of the enemys tank busting abilities you can deny him will greatly increase the ods of the succeding. Be especially careful with units that can produce multible strength 6-7 shots. Autocannon armed devastators as an example should be a priority target for you. Either try to park the waveserpent so it is out of sight of those, or give them an unhealthy dose of starcannon attention.
If possible (depends a lot on terrain and deployment ofcourse) place the wave serpent so as few as possible anti tankt threats can target it, and use your vypers and Falcon to lay down some smack on those that can. Any way you can find to minimize the amount of firepower directed at your waveserpent for that one all-important round is vital.
These are just some basic tactics you can consider. How it can play out in real life is totally dependend on how the table is set up, how clever your opponent and you have set up your forces.
okay, things I would change:
1. Mindwar and Guide. Yes they're nice to have, but with an army as low on numbers as Iyanden you need the points elsewhere and you WANT fortune every turn.
2. Witchblades in the WGuard squads. Get singing spears instead so the warlocks can contribute effectively when shooting vehicles (which WGuard really ought to be doing whenever possible as they are so damned good at it).
3. Guardians. Unfluffy, and heavy bolter bait to boot. With no platform in there, they are not even waiting around to die...they're just waiting around. If I saw a defender squad that big with no heavy weapon in it, I'd ignore it. Maybe take a shot at it each turn with a missile launcher or an assault cannon or something, but probably not as I've likely got at least 2-3 turns before they can actually shoot at me. Frankly those are point's better spent elsewhere on more threatening and resilient units.
4. Fire Prism. I admit, I fell for it too. 60" range with a strength 9 blast marker??? Sign me up! That was until it managed to hit 2 out of a possible 6 deep striking terminators twice in a row. It may be cheaper than a Falcon, but the falcon doesn't rely on one die making or breaking its turn of shooting. On average, not worth the gamble.
5. Banshees. At only 6, they are not going to make their points back unless their target has already been well tenderized, or is around the same size. Pump them up as high as possible, and get your Exarch acrobatic. That alone will nearly double the killing power of their charge.
6. Get a second wave serpent. The best way to make sure those banshees make it to combet is to give your opponent something else in his face to worry about. 5 Wraithguard with a destructor or conceal equipped warlock in a serpent is more than enough to flatten any tank in the game, and is pretty scary for any infantry unit as well.
7. FAAAAAAAAALLLLCOOOOOOOON. Holofield, Spirit Stone, Starcannon. Go forth and slaughter them ,my son.
8. Warp Spiders if you still have points. As many as you can afford, but the banshees take priority if it comes down to it.
The basic idea of the Iyanden list I play is this: can I win if I lose X unit in turn 1? Set it up so that there's not one, but LOTS of scary/juicy targets for the enemies big guns, and you have the ability to adjust your plans on the fly no matter what draws all the fire. Whatever unit becomes the fire magnet, that's the fulcrum for your attack.
Last edited by SandwichBoy; January 3rd, 2006 at 17:51.
Ok after much thought, I am deffinately redoing my army, but I have come to a crossroads that I cannot get past, and it was the same one I came to when I made the first one. I have a good core, but I am having trouble finishing it off.
Warlock with conceal
Warlock with conceal or enhance (see below)
1 Exarch with executioner
2 Vypers with starcannons
Waveserpent with Twin brightlances
That is my core without anything else spent (that means no pistols, CC weapons, nothing, the bare bones.
This takes my total to 1084
Now here are my options..... and this is what I need help on
1. Falcon with holofield,spiritstone, starcannon, 5 warp spiders w/exarch and withdraw power, 2 more wraithguard to one squad. which will leave me 19 points for miscellaneous gear and possibly another warp spider (if I decide to make the smaller wraithguard squad with enhance and use them for cc) The banshees would go into the falcon, the small guard squad into the serpent and use both for fast rushing/cc, the spiders/vypers for harass, and the lords to draw fire.
2. Add another Waveserpent with b. lances, 3 wraithguard to a foot squad, 5 warpspiders w/exarch and withdraw. Use the last 49 points to add more banshees, spiders, wraithguard,or combo of these and a few cc weapons and pistols. Very similar to 1, but without as much tank support (waveserpents are still fairly good on their own).
3. Add Waveserpent as above, Fill out banshee squad (full 10), 10 scorpions w/ exarch and stealth. Add a wraithguard.
4. Come up with a good one?
Basically these revolve around how much heavy support I want. The serpents can be dual role, and I can sack a few of the extra men to get some more gear, and also the extra serpents allow me to add more men to a good harassment unit, and allow me to take another harassment unit. The only plus I see with the falcon is the fact it will be hard as hell to kill. Hard decisions! The other question I have is whether or not to use the transported wraith squad in an assault role and use ehance (making them ws5 str5 I5) or just use conceal and blast away at the enemy. BTW can conceal be used in CC as it counts as a cover save? Also, what does MEQ stand for?
Last edited by csbassplayer; January 4th, 2006 at 04:11.
Ok, to take your last questions first. No, conceal does not count as being in cover when you are assaulted. MEQ stands for Marine Equivalent and in most respects is a reference to the 3+ armorsave of those armies.
Giving the transportet wraithguard enhance is a popular choice. Striking first in cc is invaluable. And you can always try to disembark into cover in order to have that nice cover save.
All of your three options are valid... what you end up with is probably more a matter of your temper and taste. The Falcon option is often my choice since I am a sucker for Falcons. However, using the falcon as a transport is a bit like sitting down between two chairs. The roles of main battle tank and armored personel carrier are very different. By using the Falcon as a transport and sending into the middle of the combat you are exposing it to nasty stuff such as rapid firing plasma weapons, meltas and other weapons that would otherwise never get within range due to the healthy 48" range of the pulse laser.
If I am to suggest a slightly different alternative you could use your third suggestion, and use spiders instead of scorpions. Scorpions are a sweet deal, but they are just as slow as wraithguard. That will leave you with 1 wraithguard squad in waveserpent and one that walks, one large group of banshees in a waveserpent and a decent size squad of warp spiders plus two vypers for harassing the enemy. Along with your two wraithlords and farseer you have a rather nice Iyanden army that has a good amount of fast units.