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  1. #1
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    1850 bug tournament list

    Note: this is a playtested list I have used 6 times, and I've found it to be quite good against any opponent. (Most games end with each side having 1-2 scoring units left on the board - slaughterfests are fun!) I do have some ideas about what to do differently, but am looking for suggestions from other 'nid players! I'll give some notes about why I made the choices I did afterwards.

    HQ: Tyrant - Winged, Scything x2, Implant Attack, Acid Maw, Toxin Sacs, Shadow in the Warp, Catalyst (185)

    HQ: Broodlord with 8 genestealers (19

    Elite: 4 Tyranid Warriors - Scything/Rending, Toxin Sacs, Leaping (140)

    Elite: 4 Tyranid Warriors - Enhanced Senses, Devourers, Rending Claws (10

    Troops: 10 Hormagaunts (100)

    Troops: 10 Hormagaunts (100)

    Troops: 6 Genestealers (96)

    Troops: 6 Genestealers (96)

    Fast Attack: 12 Gargoyles (144)

    Fast Attack: 12 Gargoyles (144)

    Fast Attack: 11 Gargoyles (122)

    Heavy Support: 2 Zoanthropes - Warp Blast (110)

    Heavy Support: Carnifex - Enhanced Senses, Venom Cannon, Barbed Strangler, Flesh Hooks (149)

    Heavy Support: Carnifex - Enhanced Senses, Venom Cannon, Barbed Strangler (14

    Total Points: 1850 exact


    Strategy:
    Entire army advances as one - do not deep strike the gargoyles unless there are very unusual circumstances. Gargoyles use blinding speed to get in close, using cover, to engage enemy units - they do not exist to kill anything (although they do kill stuff!), they're there to tie up enemy shooty units quickly.

    Broodlord also will *hopefully* get stuck in shortly with infiltrate, but he's really there to get evaporated by enemy fire - which he does. A lot. It's an expensive squad to use as bait, but it keeps a *lot* more gargoyles alive than would otherwise normally live - this makes for more effective tie-ups, which means the overall strategy works better. If he happens to get to assault something, all the better! But - your opponent *cannot* ignore this unit - if it assaults full strength, 5 guys die to rending right off the bat. So the other guy *has to* shoot at him, which draws shots off the rest of the army.

    Hormagaunts follow behind with the nid warriors, with thier fast charge making up for the slower movement than the gargoyles. They play cleanup/counter-charging to tie up units the gargoyles couldn't (and/or that are going to wipe out the gargoyles soon).

    Winged tyrant is there mostly to draw fire, but of course to mop up a squad if he gets close enough to do so. With Acid Maw, Implant Attack, and Toxin Sacs, he will charge prettymuch any character he is able to, though it only happens rarely. (Against Tau Suits or Orc Nobs, the 2 wounds per failed save is *huge*). Catalyst is for whichever gargoyle brood has to charge into cover on any given turn.

    Nid warriors and genestealers mop up units previously engaged by gargoyles/hormagaunts, as do surviving carnifexes once all the vehicles are dead.

    Heavy support exists for 1 and only 1 reason: kill vehicles. Only if all vehicles are dead or unshootable do they target anything else. Vehicles just plain die against this many Str 10 shots, even though most only glance. (Let's be honest here - a glance usually means that it isn't shooting the next turn, and that's all I really care about).

    Thoughts/comments/suggestions/criticisms?


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  3. #2
    Senior Member PoptartsNinja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgrad
    HQ: Tyrant - Winged, Scything x2, Implant Attack, Acid Maw, Toxin Sacs, Shadow in the Warp, Catalyst (185)
    This Tyrant is illegal. A Hive Tyrant can only have one psychic power, and he's got two. Drop Catalyst and The Shadow in the Warp (more harm to you than the enemy) and pick up Warp Field. I'd also drop Implant Attack because it's really just not worth the points (Every model you wound takes an additional wound... that's only good against Thousand Sons / Mark of Tzeentch Chaos).

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgrad
    HQ: Broodlord with 8 genestealers (19
    No extended carapace? Genestealers live a lot longer with EC, and it helps the brood lord too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgrad
    Elite: 4 Tyranid Warriors - Scything/Rending, Toxin Sacs, Leaping (140)
    I'd take Adrenal Glands (I) or Adrenal Glands (WS) over Toxin Sacs in most situations, but you kept them cheap, so this warrior brood gets a kudos-point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgrad
    Elite: 4 Tyranid Warriors - Enhanced Senses, Devourers, Rending Claws (10
    Such a short range weapon on a brood of slow warriors... you'd probably be better served with three deathspitters and a venom cannon, especially since you didn't buy toxin sacs to boost the strength of the devourers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgrad
    Troops: 10 Hormagaunts (100)

    Troops: 10 Hormagaunts (100)
    I'm not a fan of Hormagaunts. Rippers and Spinegaunts make better tar pits, but Hormies are good against low-armor save armies. If you like 'em, keep 'em (or consider taking a single brood of about sixteen).

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgrad
    Troops: 6 Genestealers (96)

    Troops: 6 Genestealers (96)
    These guys need extended carapace... it really is worth it on Genestealers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgrad
    Fast Attack: 12 Gargoyles (144)

    Fast Attack: 12 Gargoyles (144)

    Fast Attack: 11 Gargoyles (122)
    Good. Everything's better with Gargoyles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgrad
    Heavy Support: 2 Zoanthropes - Warp Blast (110)
    Get them Synapse too. Warp Blast is a great MEQ killer, albiet unreliable, but if you pick up synapse your Zoans can pull double-duty keeping your tiny critters in check and preventing themselves from being insta-killed by lascannons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgrad
    Heavy Support: Carnifex - Enhanced Senses, Venom Cannon, Barbed Strangler, Flesh Hooks (149)
    I like this guy. If you can spare the points, consider Extended Carapace (in case the enemy brings a lot of missile launchers) or Reinforced Chitin (in case they field a lot of Lascannon Equivalents)

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgrad
    Heavy Support: Carnifex - Enhanced Senses, Venom Cannon, Barbed Strangler (14
    See above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgrad
    Gargoyles use blinding speed to get in close, using cover, to engage enemy units - they do not exist to kill anything (although they do kill stuff!), they're there to tie up enemy shooty units quickly.
    Gargoyles are -excelent- light vehicle hunters. They're the only swarm in the army that I expect will kill enemy units (same number of CC attacks as Hormagaunts, one at a higher strength and initiative, they're fast, AND they can shoot (and shoot as well as a guardsman!)). Gargoyles are awesome.

    I really don't find Implant Attack to be useful except situationally. There are better things a Tyrant can be doing than hunting enemy Independant Characters (upon whom half of his attacks will be wasted if you give him Implant Attack). It's up to you if you want to keep it, but if it came down to buying Implant Attack or buying Warp Field for the Tyrant, I'd take Warp Field every time.

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    [QUOTE=PoptartsNinja]This Tyrant is illegal. A Hive Tyrant can only have one psychic power, and he's got two. Drop Catalyst and The Shadow in the Warp (more harm to you than the enemy) and pick up Warp Field. I'd also drop Implant Attack because it's really just not worth the points (Every model you wound takes an additional wound... that's only good against Thousand Sons / Mark of Tzeentch Chaos).[quote]

    Doh - I never noticed they can only take 1 psychic power. Hehheh. That's funny. In any case, Shadow in the Warp doesn't hurt me at all - it only hurts the enemy. That being said, I would much rather have Catalyst than SitW. I haven't found Warp Field to be even remotely worth the points - 35 points for a hand-to-hand monster that's usually only going to be hurt by powerfists, anyway. Meh. For my devourer tyrant, I think Warp Field would definately be worth it. This guy is, of course, a troop killer, but Implant Attack makes him situationally more useful - it is useful against a lot more than TS/MoT - any IC, Ogryns, Tyranid warriors, Nobs, Swarms, etc. There are a lot of multi-wound models in the game, many of which come in squads - which is where this guy really shines.

    No extended carapace? Genestealers live a lot longer with EC, and it helps the brood lord too.
    EC is really, really, really tempting, but it jumps up the points so much it hurts. I see so many people recommend it I should really playtest it a couple times..... Hmm.....

    Such a short range weapon on a brood of slow warriors... you'd probably be better served with three deathspitters and a venom cannon, especially since you didn't buy toxin sacs to boost the strength of the devourers.
    That's a lot more points, but it's a tempting combo. I just get all giddy when I see "Assault 2X". Heh......

    I'm not a fan of Hormagaunts. Rippers and Spinegaunts make better tar pits, but Hormies are good against low-armor save armies. If you like 'em, keep 'em (or consider taking a single brood of about sixteen).
    I like them because it's not just about tying up squads, it's about tying up squads *quickly*, and the 12" charge and never-have-to-decide-if-I-want-to-fleet part of hormagaunts usually means getting to assault 1-2 turns faster than spinegaunts. My next list is going to have flying rippers from hell, though - that'll be fun, once I convert the minis. What do you find most effective on your ripper bases?

    These guys need extended carapace... it really is worth it on Genestealers.
    Where would you take the points from to give it to them?

    Good. Everything's better with Gargoyles.
    Oh yeah, baby.

    Get them Synapse too. Warp Blast is a great MEQ killer, albiet unreliable, but if you pick up synapse your Zoans can pull double-duty keeping your tiny critters in check and preventing themselves from being insta-killed by lascannons.
    Again - where do I get the points for the upgrade? I understand limiting the insta-kills, but I already have 4 synapse nodes in this army, and only two squads that are under leadership 10, so the leadership benefit would be wasted.

    I like this guy. If you can spare the points, consider Extended Carapace (in case the enemy brings a lot of missile launchers) or Reinforced Chitin (in case they field a lot of Lascannon Equivalents)

    See above.
    You recommended a lot of upgrades, but other than freeing up 20 points in psychic powers and 40 points in hormagaunts, you didn't suggest smart places I could get the extra 164 points in improvements (plus 15-25 per carnifex) - I would verymuch like suggestions about how to change the army - not just what would be nice if I had more points. Your thoughts on this?

    I really don't find Implant Attack to be useful except situationally. There are better things a Tyrant can be doing than hunting enemy Independant Characters (upon whom half of his attacks will be wasted if you give him Implant Attack). It's up to you if you want to keep it, but if it came down to buying Implant Attack or buying Warp Field for the Tyrant, I'd take Warp Field every time.
    Well, that's not the choice - that's 12 points vs. 35 points. Implant Attack *is* only situationally useful, but when it's useful, it ridiculously useful. I think you're underestimating just how many 2+ wound creatures there are in 40k. 5 attacks is very nice, but it's not going to kill an enemy demon prince, carnifex, squad of tyranid warriors/battlesuits/nobs, ogryns, greater demon, chaplain, avatar, or librarian before they get to hit you back. Against a wraithlord, a tryant is going to take 3-4 assault phases to kill it (and will probably get killed by it before it does kill it). With implant attack, you can do exactly that, easily killing either a) the IC/monstrous creature you target, or b) killing all squad members within 2" so they can't hit you back on those multi-wound squads. It even gives the tyrant a reasonable chance to kill a wraithlord in 1 assault phase, and makes it likely in 2. In short, I think you should give it another chance. =)

  5. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgrad
    In any case, Shadow in the Warp doesn't hurt me at all - it only hurts the enemy.
    It does when you're fighting Eldar... but I'll only go into the semantics of that if you really want me to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgrad
    EC is really, really, really tempting, but it jumps up the points so much it hurts. I see so many people recommend it I should really playtest it a couple times..... Hmm.
    It takes genestealers from a 33% survival rate in CC to a 50% survival rate, and takes them from a 0% (barring cover) survival rate against bolters to a 50% survival rate vs. bolters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgrad
    What do you find most effective on your ripper bases?
    Ever since I playtested the Spineripper broods someone on the forum was talking about, I've been sold on them. Spinerippers have Leaping, Enhanced Senses, Spinefists, and Toxin Sacs... alternatively, you can drop Toxin Sacs for one of the Adrenal Glands and Extended Carapace. That's only 7 points per wound, so it's midway between Termagants and Hormagaunts.

    The advantage of the spineripper is, you get seven attacks on a charge (3 shooting, plus assault attacks), and they go at the same time as assault CC Carnifexes (Init-wise) so they're the perfect screen if you field a big bruiser 'fex (like I sometimes do). Even better, they've got a 12" charge range, allowing them to lock down enemy models that are outside the Carnifex's charge range for a turn or two, which basically assures that the Carnifex will get the charge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgrad
    I understand limiting the insta-kills, but I already have 4 synapse nodes in this army, and only two squads that are under leadership 10, so the leadership benefit would be wasted.
    It's more to give the Zoanthropes immunity to being instant-killed by Lascannons and missile launchers, as well as letting them play "backup" synapse for your army.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgrad
    You recommended a lot of upgrades, but other than freeing up 20 points in psychic powers and 40 points in hormagaunts, you didn't suggest smart places I could get the extra 164 points in improvements (plus 15-25 per carnifex) - I would verymuch like suggestions about how to change the army - not just what would be nice if I had more points. Your thoughts on this?
    I usually just offer upgrade suggestions because it makes people stop and think "Hm, why am I taking this brood with this layout?"... which is really all I try to accomplish. My opinion is, drop the second carnifex. In 1,000 points, and with three zoanthropes also providing AV, having a pair of Carnifexes and a horde may be stretching your points a bit too far. Now, I'm a big proponant of the Carnifex (It's freakin' awesome), but you're also fielding a lot of Gargoyles in a thousand points... and we have to be honest, Gargoyles are awesome but really expensive (I usually don't field them in lists under 1500 points) for what is essentially a flying termagant with bio-plasma.

    It comes down to a bit of a balancing act for me... Gargoyles and Spinegaunts, or Hormagaunts and Spinegaunts... but in 1,000 points, fielding both gargoyles and hormagaunts can get quite expensive, and make it hard to field those bigger units. Gaunts may not have a 12" assault range, but thanks to fleet of claw, they're still blindingly fast compared to the only other Horde Assault army in the game (Orks), and they do serve a purpose beyond just dying... outnumbering. A genestealer brood backed by sixteen gaunts is nothing to sneeze at in close combat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgrad
    It even gives the tyrant a reasonable chance to kill a wraithlord in 1 assault phase, and makes it likely in 2. In short, I think you should give it another chance. =)
    If I ever build a Tyrant as a character hunter, I'll be sure to give it a shot. I've just been so absolutely pleased with my sky devourer tyrant's that I've not looked back at flying scy-tals since.

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    I usually just offer upgrade suggestions because it makes people stop and think "Hm, why am I taking this brood with this layout?"... which is really all I try to accomplish. My opinion is, drop the second carnifex. In 1,000 points, and with three zoanthropes also providing AV, having a pair of Carnifexes and a horde may be stretching your points a bit too far. Now, I'm a big proponant of the Carnifex (It's freakin' awesome), but you're also fielding a lot of Gargoyles in a thousand points... and we have to be honest, Gargoyles are awesome but really expensive (I usually don't field them in lists under 1500 points) for what is essentially a flying termagant with bio-plasma.

    It comes down to a bit of a balancing act for me... Gargoyles and Spinegaunts, or Hormagaunts and Spinegaunts... but in 1,000 points, fielding both gargoyles and hormagaunts can get quite expensive, and make it hard to field those bigger units. Gaunts may not have a 12" assault range, but thanks to fleet of claw, they're still blindingly fast compared to the only other Horde Assault army in the game (Orks), and they do serve a purpose beyond just dying... outnumbering. A genestealer brood backed by sixteen gaunts is nothing to sneeze at in close combat.
    But this is an 1850 point list....... =)

  7. #6
    Senior Member PoptartsNinja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgrad
    But this is an 1850 point list....... =)
    Why so it is. Reading comprehension > Poptarts... apparently, they didn't quite toast me long enough. ^_^

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