Welcome to Librarium Online!
Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!
Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!
I've become deathly bored of running the same monstrous creature list, and even more bored of running the same two anti-tank carnifexes that never make their points back and spend the whole game pissing me off. So this is my list created in an attempt to retain a competitive angle yet get rid of that feeling that I have to run 5 warp blasts and 2 AT carnifexes just to deal with vehicles.
Headquarters - 309 pts
Hive Tyrant - 131 pts
2x Twin-Linked Devourer
Hive Tyrant - 178 pts
2x Scything Talons
Adrenal Glands (Initiative)
Elites - 386 pts
Carnifex - 113 pts
2x Twin-Linked Devourer
Carnifex - 113 pts
2x Twin-Linked Devourer
Lictor Brood - 160
Troops - 760 pts
Genestealer Brood - 160 pts
Genestealer Brood - 160 pts
Genestealer Brood - 160 pts
Hormagaunt Brood - 140 pts
Hormagaunt Brood - 140 pts
Heavy Support - 395 pts
Zoanthrope Brood - 130 pts
Carnifex - 265 pts
Adrenal Glands (Initiative)
Adrenal Glands (Weapon Skill)
Total Points - 1850
Vehicles are theoretically going to be dealt with by Warp Blasts, Devourer fex shots vs light transports, and deepstriking lictors. I've heard good and bad things about lictors, but I like the models, like the ideas, and they can fill in what I've lost so I think they deserve a run. Without the long range fexes, everything will be moving forward and completely scaring the enemy. Everything can hit hard in CC, save maybe the hormagaunts, but they're meant to die anyway. The uberfex is meant to work in tandem with the winged tyrant (who I am debating whether or not to swap the blast for a field and improve his survivability). Either the tyrant will die and the fex will have another turn or 2 of moving forward along with the stealers and all the rest, or the other way around and the winged tyrant will hit the lines. If they focus on the genestealers, well then they have an incredibly beefy tyrant and fex hitting their lines.
Anyway, tell me what you think! I'll probably take this list for a spin on monday. I'll be sure to tell how it does!
So according to 53 people by now my list is either irreparably bad or criminally good. Hopefully the latter!
If there are no comments, I will take the list as is to 40K night tonight and post back / edit this post with how it fares.
Edit I return bearing gifts!
I played the above list unmodified and came through with a crushing victory against Khorne!
The all-stars were:
The Uberfex! For taking on 10 bloodletters and wounding the bloodthirster twice before going down to Davy Jones locker
The Lictors! For taking out a 200 point Defiler and rending some chosen bikers early on - more than earning their points back.
The Flyrant! For taking out a Chaos Lord and the second 200 point defiler!
The experimental parts of this list performed superbly! Perhaps because they were unexpected, perhaps because he played wrong, or perhaps because they just rock exceptionally hard. Maybe a combination!
I'll be testing this list more, probably as is unless there's a significant change someone sees that needs to be made. This coming Wednesday I'll hopefully be back with more results!
And if anyone is interested, I'd be happy to write a more in depth spiel about how things went down.
That is all.
Last edited by akthomas89; May 9th, 2006 at 04:47.
But...that's Khorne. O.o Try to play someone who doesn't charge out at you. Like Iron Warriors. I hateses those Iron Warriors... Stupid obliterators...
The primary problem with warp blast is that you only EVER hit half of the time. Also, considering what you're shooting at, odds are you'll have an opponent that'll have an invulnerable save, which means that your warp blasts won't help that much with that. Also, your tyrants have to choose between shooting their guns, or shooting their warp blast.
Also, by taking warp blast, you're denying your flying tyrant a 2+ save, which is bad. There's not that many AP2 weapons compared to AP3, and that save will help lots. Keep in mind that the concentrated warp blast can't be used if your tyrant has enhanced senses.
The concentrated warp blast has a range of 18". A flying tyrant has an assault range of 18". A concentrated warp blast is one strength ten shot that will miss half the time and won't allow armor saves. A scytal flying tyrant can deliver five strength six attacks that will ignore armor saves. Also, if you give the flying tyrant warp field, it will have a better save than the warp blast flying tyrant. So, odds are you'll wound more, force more saves, and kill more stuff. Especially as in assault, you'll block LOS to size 3 units, always count as ten models (unless you're dead), and go twice as much as a warp blast. You could, theoretically, destroy a whole enemy squad a turn, consolodate into another one, and continue going. Consider spending the points on Warp Blast to beef up your CC tyrant.
If you're having trouble with vehicles, consider replacing the TL devs on your other tyrant with a venom cannon and TL deathspitter. Three strength 8 shots and one reroll to hit strength 7 shot is nothing to sneeze at. Also, the deathspitter can penetrate.
I loveseses the elite carnifexes. They're so much fun and people shoot at them a lot. But seeing as how you seem to want to get into close combat, consider arming them with flesh hooks. They can unload all their shots into a unit in cover, then charge in. Lord forbid a carnifex that goes at the SAME TIME as everyone else, especially those who don't have invulnerable saves. Fuuuuuun.
Lictors can be fun, but I've rarely had them work on the same person twice (assuming said person has average 40K IQ). Know what's really fun? Playing marine players and hiding everything you have out of LOS...and field three biovores and deepstriking fast attack spore mines. Barrage them with the biovore mines and use the deepstriking mines to kill anything that can shoot you out of LOS (such as a basilisk, which just happens to be open topped...)
Your troops look solid. I'd recommend giving your gene stealers extended carapace, but it's your call in the end. Also, consider splitting off either two genestealers from each of your 'stealer squads and adding a sixth troop choice of six, or pulling off four of your hormagaunts and making a sixth of eight. More targets, but less likely that every shot will count. I'd recommend perhaps giving your horms the WS upgrade. This will make it harder for heavy weapon platforms (like obliterators) to hit you and will, coincidentally, mean that they'll stay in combat more...and not shoot.
If you want so many warp blasts, why not consider fielding another zoan with just warp blast?
Hmmm...Assault 'fexes are one way or another, I think. They're either awesome, or useless. I don't play to plan on units making back their points... I play on how soon a unit can BEGIN to earn back their points. For example, hormies can tie up units, block LOS, and maybe kill stuff by turn two. Genestealers? Turn three. Close combat 'fexes? Turn four. Maybe five. Sniperfexes with VCs and BSs? Turn one. Shooty Tyrants? Turn one. You can almost field two sniperfexes for the price of your single CC monster carni-folk.
If you want close combat goodness? Try fielding two elite carnis. Two scytals, spinebanks, and toxin sacs (though I'd recommend WS and something else upgrades instead, but instant killing stuff is fun). If you do, let me know how it works out!
The Khorne guy wasn't stupid. He's a good player, and he knew his limits - he kept all his guys in cover the whole game, save his bikers and bloodletters + thirster that spawned from them. Against a shooting army the strategy is different though. That is (hypothetically) the CC carnifex will really shine. Because if he ever does hit CC, a shooty army will have a real tough time bringing him down.
I do like the idea of warp field. The warp blast is very nice also though - but the point is, unlike the CC carnifex, the tyrant can't do a plethora of other things to improve his survivability (no extra wounds, no extra toughness, etc.) I never really run him completely geared up, but I may try it and see how he works in tandem with the carnifex. However, there's plenty of AP2 weapons and comparatively not that many AP3. Save maybe Ion Cannons and Missile Launchers, the warp field will probably only be a statistical advantage against light arms and such.
I don't really follow your logic on the psychic powers advantages. I agree, a warp field will improve his survivability, but I don't see how he'll wound more, force more saves, and kill more stuff. Any way the warp blast is fired, it is an assault weapon. I could fire it, charge in, and ultimately do more damage (assuming the warp blast hits).
Deathspitters aren't that great. They're at their worst on an MC. I can't think of a worse way to fill up a weapon slot, save perhaps using rending claws. I'm trying to get out of the habit of using long ranged AT creatures that are subpar at what they do and ultimately just piss me off. Hence the experimental (for me at least) uberfex and lictors - both of which I loved in the past game.
Why would I want my elite fexes in CC? If they're in CC, they aren't firing. I use them for CC late game if completely necessary. For instance, they were what took down the bloodthirster in the end. The rest of the game they need to be firing those shots - either at masses of infantry, enemy transports, whatever. But in CC they're being wasted. However, I do normally take flesh hooks. But they are the last things I add and in this case they would've put me over 1850 - they're not worth taking out something else just to put in such a situational upgrade.
That list sounds fun. However, It doesn't really pertain. I've never had success with biovores, or spore mines. Maybe I'll develop the same attitude against Lictors, however I've had a good first experience with them.
I agree, filling up the troops slots is a good idea. However, I'd rather try to do it in another way. While yes, 10-strong squads of stealers can be cumbersome when trying to keep them out of LOS, in area terrain they are fine and when squads get small, they drastically go down in effectiveness. While they are still good even in smaller numbers, I'd rather try to fit in another squad of them completely or another squad of hormagaunts or something else before splitting them up and reducing how effective they can be. Keeping the enemies shots from counting isn't a bad idea either, but that's assuming that they'd be wiping these squads out and that's a pretty negative attitude .
Again, the close combat fex is an experiment. To be honest, I've never ran a CC fex or an uberfex, and now running both together is quite an experience. Maybe I've had good luck for the first game, maybe he's just good - either way I'd like to playtest him some more with less/other/more upgrades and see how he works the best.
I don't think any elites choice is better than the good ol' devourer fexes. They rock severely hard.
Why was he sitting in cover? O.o An army composed mainly of berzerkers could kick the tar out of many a tyranids. I mean, he'd make monstrous creatures save as if they were ECed gaunts, and that's bad! Plus they'd still get their 3+ armor saves and allll those nasty bonuses for the Mark of Khorne.
Let me clarify my position on the warp blast thing. When I was writing my response, I was under the impression that you gave your flying tyrant TL devourers (from looking at your walking one, it was late). I still think warp field would be better than warp blast. Warp blast would still only hit half the time, so that means that you'll get to use it a whole two or three times a game if you're fighting things like normal space marines (whom you cannot run down). Warp field would give you two things. One, your saves improve quite a bit. Just because you get a save doesn't exactly mean you're guaranteed to escape from being wounded. However, being wounded 1/6 of the time instead of 1/3 is a pretty big improvement. Two, you'll get an invulnerable save. True, it's not a lot, but it may just be enough.
I have deathspitters on monstrous creatures as well, but I can see how it might be acceptable on a carni-folk. However, I was making the suggestion as you stated you had some trouble with vehicles and a strength 7 deathspitter can penetrate.
Why would you want your elite carnifexes in close combat? Because they're still monstrous creatures! Firing eight shots into a squad then assaulting that squad will put the severest hurt on them. Besides, considering how carnifexes move, your only opportunity to assault will be late game. Granted, in close combat, they are relatively wasted. But remember, you'll have two assault phases to smack the squad around before it's your shooting turn again. Besides, have ten extra models might help swing a battle with gaunts in your favor.
You'd be surprised how fearful some players are of genestealers. They'll quake in their boots at the thought of an all-genestealer army. With that said, most people have a somewhat skewed view of threats--"I just killed three genestealers! Those three left won't be that much of a threat..." They do it with gaunts, too.
I like CC 'fexes myself. I have a 191 monster as well. But, statistically, they aren't that worthwhile. Still, psychology, people don't fear them enough, I think.
And I agree. I love my devil carni-folk. Space Marine landspeeder armies crap their pants when they see three or four along the table. But if you wanted to, here's a tactic to use those elite CC carnifexes with...
X=CC carnifexes, O=Walking tyrant with guard in front of said tyrant, B=Shooty or more carnifexes, G=Troops, genestealers most likely.
This is, basically, moveable terrain. With all those monstrous creatures in BtB, they block line of sight to G troops. It's a fun strategy to use against those who have problems getting their hands on ordanance weapons. Typically, it won't work twice, but still.
He was sitting in cover for a number of reasons. First and foremost, he knew I would come to him either way. Two, he knew because of my faster movement, I'd probably get the charge either way as well. Three, if I charged him in cover, he gets to go first and take out as many stealers as he can before they rend an awful lot of marines. Even if it doesn't fit with a chaos army, let alone one that has marks of khorne here and there (it wasn't a full blown Khorne army). Going from 3+ to 4+ on those MCs is bad yes, but you still have to wound them first. Which is still a trial.
I'm still thinking of decking out the CC tyrant. Today's game made me think, and if I play him right to keep him alive, he'll do a lot better with a nicer save and CC upgrades. I think I'm going to write up a new list and post it here later.
A strength 8 strangler can too, and has more application than a crap deathspitter. I just really don't like the gun. Maybe on warrior broods, but then again, I don't like warrior broods either.
Carnifexes still typically get hit on 3+ and wounded on a 6+, so you're right, they can hold their own. But the point is, holding your own typically isn't combined with performing excellently. They perform excellently when they shoot. They hold their own in CC. Hence the reason why I'd rather keep them shooting. Granted, there are occasions when doing both would be beneficial or charging in would be the best course of action (read: against high-armored foes without much of a punch in CC - a rarity at best).
I suppose. I may try to fit in a 4th squad to max out troops and give them some more flexibility.
Not everything can be measured in statistics, my friend. Statistically, my carnifex did not make his points back in the past game. But from a qualitative standpoint, he still performed very well - soaking up shots from a predator the entire game, while hormagaunts held up the defiler for turns and eventually smashing the defiler to pieces, then dying like a punk to a meltagun. He still did well.
Problem with that setup is battlecannons. It doesn't work twice and against any army fielding a battlecannon they can take out a ton of troops along with wounding several monstrous creatures at the same time. Still, the tyranid 'phalanx' is not a bad idea if cover is lacking and there isn't ordnance to break the tactic quickly.
Finally, I feel it appropriate to say that this same list achieved another victory! It was solid, near to being a crushing victory. The game was against a full-blown Khorne army this time, however it was fielded by a different player. Some things I learned from this game:1. The uber-fex makes a good firemagnet, especially if you tell your opponent how much he is worth. The predator fired at him all game, yet he still survived to make it across the board and smash the defiler.I would also like to make this last fact known. Running extended carapace on my genestealers would have done nothing at all.
2. A flying tyrant really needs the CC upgrades to perform well against another CC beast. He can do his duty against marines with grace, but he is not reliable against other CC monsters without the works.
3. Late game Lictors aren't necessarily a bad thing. Coming in on turn 5, one still managed to take out the rear of a rhino and have 6 guys wounded in the crash, with 5 dying on their way out. The other lictor worked in tandem with a squad of genestealers and an elite carnifex to block all the exits of a rhino, as the rhino was smashed by the fex and everyone inside died.
4. Running lots of genestealers is never bad. One squad died before it saw action, being too far away to charge the rhino and left in the open. Another squad died in combat with a dreadnought, crippling it by destroying its weapons, but never downing the bugger. The third squad took out a squad of 8 bloodletters, a daemon prince, and squad of berserkers, and assisted in the destruction of another squad of berserkers by blocking the third exit, more than making enough points to account for all of the genestealers.
Wow really?? i mean the nubmer of ap5 weapons on basic troops out there is phenomenal. Tau especially would like to say thankyou if you don't give your Genestealers EC str 5 30" ap5 guns.... thats hit on a 4+ wound on a 3+ no save... and at 10 pts a gun gg non upgraded genestealers....Originally Posted by akthomas89
But i digress are you saying in close combat you didn't roll a 4 for your armour save instead of a 5?? even so the saves are probably one of the most universally accepted upgrade for Genestealers... you might find last game they didn't do anything but next game they will save 1/2 your genestealers life. After all ap 5 weapons go from no save to saving half of your little genes... for 4 points thats well worth it.
If you like the post click the *STAR* <===
How did he stay in cover? Any unit with the MoK HAS to move towards the nearest enemy. He can't just stay still....
EDIT: honestly.... An IG player with more then 5 lascannons would hug you when you put that 265 points of "SHOOT ME NOW" on the feild...
Carni... CMIIW.... But strength 5, against T 4, wound on 3's...
Last edited by Dancing_Donut; May 13th, 2006 at 15:28.
Necron 2000 14/1/13
How come everybody else on this forum has 400 wins to 2 loses? I smell cheese.... and beef... sandwich!
What was Rogal Dorn doing when the Sanguinius and the Emporer got killed???
Woohoooo I killed the treeman!!! :)
I killed the Glade riders too!!!! :)
you can in fact use warp blast if you have enhanced sences. you just cant use the concentrated blast that is s10 ap2. you can fire the s5 ap3 blast template while equipping your tyrant with enhanced sences