[1000] Al'is Hunter Cadre - Revamped - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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  1. #1
    LO's Shadow Captain Lost Nemesis's Avatar
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    [1000] Al'is Hunter Cadre - Revamped

    Well, after what probably would have ended up as a crushing defeat if I had been the only one playing in my last battle against the Eldar, I have decided to revamp my 1000 point list to include more anti-MEQ stuff.

    Keep in mind, I want constructive criticism - if you tell me to "drop this, take this" without any good explanation or anything, then your advice won't be listed to!

    Here we go:

    List Edited - Please See Post #9, Thanks!

    Last edited by Lost Nemesis; July 21st, 2006 at 22:47.

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  3. #2
    Senior Member The Salmon Thief's Avatar
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    HQ

    [1] Shas'el
    +Twin-Linked Plasma Rifle
    +Fusion Blaster
    +Hard-Wired Multitracker
    +Stimulant Injectors
    =107 points
    Looks pretty good. Personally I like Shas'o's because of the +1 BS, which I think it worth 25 points... and then you could use the slot that would have the second plasma rifle for another weapon maybe, because hitting on 2+ is pretty reliable...

    Elites

    [1] Crisis Battlesuit
    +Twin-Linked Plasma Rifle
    +Targeting Array
    =65 points

    [1] Crisis Battlesuit
    +Twin-Linked Plasma Rifle
    +Targeting Array
    =65 points

    [6] Stealth Battlesuits
    =180 points
    I like that the suits are monat. However I don't quite get your logic behind TL Plasma rifles; if you're within 12 inches with Plasma + Fusion and hitting on 3+, you'll kill 2-3 MEQ's a turn, from my experience with Helios suits. With TL plasma, 2 max, though pretty much guaranteed, however you don't have the Fusion blaster, whose Str8 can be useful in a lot of situations. Particularly again'st MC's, I've learned...

    No complaints on the stealths.

    Troops

    [11] Fire Warriors
    [1] Shas'ui
    +Bonding Knife
    [1] Devilfish
    +Decoy Launchers
    +Targeting Array
    =225 points

    [10] Kroot Warriors
    =70 points
    Looks fine.

    Fast Attack

    [6] Vespid Stingwings
    [1] Strain Leader
    =118 points
    I really can't comment because I've only used Vespids once, and they seemed kinda useful o_0


    Heavy Support

    [1] Hammerhead Tank
    +Railgun
    +Burst Cannons (x2)
    +Multitracker
    +Decoy Launchers
    +Target Lock
    =170 points
    *nod*

    Looks like a pretty decent take-all-comers list. Never forget about the Hammerhead's submunition rounds against MEQ's, at str6 they can be more effective than you think.
    Gloria Imperator, The Firstborn Stand!
    - 2000pts Inquisition, 2000pts Vostroyans, 3000pts Vampire Counts, 1400pts Daemons, [WIP] 2500pts Death Guard

  4. #3
    LO's Shadow Captain Lost Nemesis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Salmon Thief
    Looks pretty good. Personally I like Shas'o's because of the +1 BS, which I think it worth 25 points... and then you could use the slot that would have the second plasma rifle for another weapon maybe, because hitting on 2+ is pretty reliable...
    I like the Shas'O, too, but I want to buy the Commander box for the Shas'O of my Hunter Cadre, and I'm only going to have one (fluff reasons). I already have this guy put together, glued and all (no magnets here) so, I figured it'd be better off as the Shas'el right there. Shas'O isn't going to come in until 1850 ish points.

    I like that the suits are monat. However I don't quite get your logic behind TL Plasma rifles; if you're within 12 inches with Plasma + Fusion and hitting on 3+, you'll kill 2-3 MEQ's a turn, from my experience with Helios suits. With TL plasma, 2 max, though pretty much guaranteed, however you don't have the Fusion blaster, whose Str8 can be useful in a lot of situations. Particularly again'st MC's, I've learned...
    The Twin-Linked Plasma Rifles are, in my opinion, very nice for when I don't have the chance to get within 12" of the enemy. I end up being in that scenario more often than not, taking pot shots at 13"+ away, so I'd rather hit with that single shot (and the two rapid fire shots, when I get the chance) than have an extra gun on there. I also don't plan on seeing too many MC's and the likes in this low of points - if I do, though, I think my Commander's Fusion and my Railgun could hopefully take 'em out. Maybe..

    No complaints on the stealths.
    Good.

    I really can't comment because I've only used Vespids once, and they seemed kinda useful o_0
    I haven't had any experience with them, but I like the models and I like the idea behind them. In larger games, they are going to be my #1 combination with Pathfinders - their weapons will rip people up when they hit on a 2+! Also, they seem like they can do a good job in supporting one of my Battlesuits - say, I deployed on two sides. One flank is my Commander + a Battlesuit, the other is a Battlesuit + Vespids.. good anti-MEQ support on either side.

    Looks like a pretty decent take-all-comers list. Never forget about the Hammerhead's submunition rounds against MEQ's, at str6 they can be more effective than you think.
    I realise that, but I've been having horrible luck these days with the Railgun's submunition. I can't seem to hit anything! Thanks for the reminder, though.

    Keep 'em coming!

  5. #4
    The deep down truth Rikimaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lost Nemesis
    Well, after what probably would have ended up as a crushing defeat if I had been the only one playing in my last battle against the Eldar, I have decided to revamp my 1000 point list to include more anti-MEQ stuff.

    Keep in mind, I want constructive criticism - if you tell me to "drop this, take this" without any good explanation or anything, then your advice won't be listed to!

    Here we go:

    HQ

    [1] Shas'el
    +Twin-Linked Plasma Rifle
    +Fusion Blaster
    +Hard-Wired Multitracker
    +Stimulant Injectors
    =107 points
    I can see your idea with the twin linked plasma, but I would rather have a TA and have the improved BS for both the weapons, after all 2+ is very much equal to a re-roll for the plasma and you are reducing the efectiveness of the fusion, which is a very important weapon for helios types and a fusion hitting on 2+ is lethal. Just a thought (the rest of the fit is good)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lost Nemesis
    Elites

    [1] Crisis Battlesuit
    +Twin-Linked Plasma Rifle
    +Targeting Array
    =65 points

    [1] Crisis Battlesuit
    +Twin-Linked Plasma Rifle
    +Targeting Array
    =65 points
    MMM not convinced by this at all, at 24" you get one hit and at 12" two hits, me I would take a standard Helios with HW multi and TA and have the versatality against armour, you still get 1 shot at 12" at BS3 but you get 3 shots at 12" (bit more expensive but better for the points IMO)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lost Nemesis
    [6] Stealth Battlesuits
    =180 points
    Sweet, bog standard unit I like it

    Quote Originally Posted by Lost Nemesis
    Troops

    [11] Fire Warriors
    [1] Shas'ui
    +Bonding Knife
    [1] Devilfish
    +Decoy Launchers
    +Targeting Array
    =225 points

    [10] Kroot Warriors
    =70 points
    FW are ok but I would lose the bonding and TA and use the points on the XV8's you really do not need TA on a DF it is just not worth the points, and the bonding is a very dubious benefit, mostly because you have the Shas'Ui's LDS which is usually good enough. I think the points would be better spent on making the XV8 suits more versatile units i/e better returns for the points

    Kroot no problems there you know I love Kroot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lost Nemesis
    Fast Attack

    [6] Vespid Stingwings
    [1] Strain Leader
    =118 points
    These are a seriously dubious choice, they are fragile as it stands anyway and you have a very very small squad, do the math and work out how much damage you could do against a MEQ unit (even with CC) and I guarantee you will not be able to do enough damage to prevent a nasty return attack next turn. the poor save allied with the short ranged weapon and poor BS makes these a very difficult unit to use well and I do not honestly think they are worth the points.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lost Nemesis
    Heavy Support

    [1] Hammerhead Tank
    +Railgun
    +Burst Cannons (x2)
    +Multitracker
    +Decoy Launchers
    +Target Lock
    =170 points
    Seems good but you do not need TA, the HH should NEVER be close enough to any unit to need to use the BC's (and thats why your taking TL I assume), I know its only 5 points but with the vespids points and the 5 pts you have 123points for another Shas'El who I guarantee will be much more usefull than the vespids, with a helios Multi you would kill the same amount of MEQS per turn as the Vespid (at 12" same range as the vespids gun and have JSJ to get you some distance), it would have IC status and you could give it iridium armour to make it even tougher to kill (in fact it would be harder to kill than the vespid unit & give better returns in versitality)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lost Nemesis
    Overall, I like this list a lot better - anti-horde is done well enough with the Fire Warriors, Devilfish, Hammerhead, Kroot, and Stealth Suits, while anti-MEQ is covered very well with the Shas'el, two Crisis Suits, and the Vespids.

    Comments?
    Overall a nice list with a few minor issues (more taste than anything (XV8 fits etc)), you have gone for more MEQ killing but I think the Vespids are the wrong direction, go for an extra Shas'El and re-jig the weapons fits on the XV8's and you will have a much more potent anti MEQ/Armour killing force, but the anti hoard is pretty much untouched and the overall list is very similar in feel to the existing one.
    Hope this helps it is only my opinion at the end of the day so take anything usefull dude.
    Last edited by Rikimaru; July 21st, 2006 at 14:22.
    1984

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    As the other guys have given you really good advice, I'm going to go on a brutal efficiency kick to establish some of their ideas, and add a few of my own. Take the advice or leave it as you see fit:

    HQ:
    [1] Shas'el
    +Twin-Linked Plasma Rifle
    +Fusion Blaster
    +Hard-Wired Multitracker
    +Stimulant Injectors
    =107 points


    I would go with a FB/PR/TA/HWMT & Stim Injectors (if you really want them), same points and slightly more efficient.

    Mathhammer to establish efficiency:
    TLPR @ 12" @ BS4 wounds 1.48 MEQs and with the FB's .55 MEQ wounds @ 12" we have a total of 2.03 wounds for this guy @ 12". (PR hits 32/36, wounds 5/6 [x2], and FB hits 4/6, wounds 5/6)
    PR @ 12" @ BS5 wounds 1.38 MEQs and with the FB's .69 wounds @ 12" we have a total of 2.07 wounds.

    If you plan on using him within 12", a TA is better. Outside of 12" and you see that a TLPR is better (.74 wounds versus .69 wounds).

    Crazy, huh?


    ELITES:
    [1] Crisis Battlesuit
    +Twin-Linked Plasma Rifle
    +Targeting Array
    =65 points


    While the TLPR/TA is more efficient @ 12" (43.9 pts/MEQ wound vs 46.6 pts/MEQ wound) I think I would go TmLd/HWMT/FB/PR/TA for 3 BS4 hits within 12" and for the extra vehicle killing and the "I can kill anything out there" attitude you can have with them. Plus, those FBs really seem to scare my opponents into acting really stupid around my suits.

    [6] Stealth Battlesuits
    =180 points


    YES! That's all I have to say about them.

    TROOPS
    [11] Fire Warriors
    [1] Shas'ui
    +Bonding Knife
    [1] Devilfish
    +Decoy Launchers
    +Targeting Array
    =225 points


    I don't think you need the TA on the Devilfish as you are only shooting 3 shots (like 1.5 extra FWs) @ 18" if you don't move more than 6" (no multitracker), but you should always be moving at least 7" for the glancing only rule. You will not get to shoot it very often anyway, and it seems like a waste of points for how often you get to use it.

    [10] Kroot Warriors
    =70 points

    Bigger unit if you have the points, but I don't think you will.


    FAST ATTACK
    [6] Vespid Stingwings
    [1] Strain Leader
    =118 points


    Everyone talks about what a great MEQ killer these guys are, but I look at it as what a great Vespid killer the basic marine is. They just don't have the necessary ability to weather a barrage from marine fire like the marines can seem to weather their fire. You'll kill a few, but not enough. I think if you expect them to take out MEQs, they should be able to do it really well on their own (like a crisis) and then when you add the rest of the army...LOOK OUT!

    (EDIT: It's up to you, but I would drop them for another HQ 'el crisis).

    HEAVY SUPPORT
    [1] Hammerhead Tank
    +Railgun
    +Burst Cannons (x2)
    +Multitracker
    +Decoy Launchers
    +Target Lock
    =170 points


    I don't mind the target lock if you use the tank aggressively like I do. Mine almost never survives a battle, but it does so much damage and havoc to my enemy, it's worth it. If you don't, and you sit back with the hammerhead and fire away, then you should drop it for the extra points.

    Good list overall, and my advice is geared to making it that much more efficient and deadly. I hope I explained my points well enough for you.
    Last edited by Y'he Sha'is; July 21st, 2006 at 14:54.

  7. #6
    The deep down truth Rikimaru's Avatar
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    724 (x8)

    Quote Originally Posted by Y'he Sha'is
    but I would drop them for 2 more crisis suits to make each team 2 strong (more dead MEQs who can't fire back at a JSJing crisis).
    2 suit XV8 teams are a bad idea, one suit lost and your last man testing EVERY turn, the extra Shas'El is a much better choice, better BS, better wounds, IC status which makes them infinatley harder to kill. you will get more use out of the Shas'El.
    1984

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    That is correct rikimaru! My bad. Edit above.

  9. #8
    LO's Shadow Captain Lost Nemesis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rikimaru
    I can see your idea with the twin linked plasma, but I would rather have a TA and have the improved BS for both the weapons, after all 2+ is very much equal to a re-roll for the plasma and you are reducing the efectiveness of the fusion, which is a very important weapon for helios types and a fusion hitting on 2+ is lethal. Just a thought (the rest of the fit is good)
    Hm. Well, I already have the model assembled, which is probably the biggest reason I'm taking it in this configuration - maybe if I made the T-L Plasma + Fusion combo on a Team Leader Monat Suit? I'll have to see. I just don't want the model to go to waste.

    Quote Originally Posted by rikimaru
    MMM not convinced by this at all, at 24" you get one hit and at 12" two hits, me I would take a standard Helios with HW multi and TA and have the versatality against armour, you still get 1 shot at 12" at BS3 but you get 3 shots at 12" (bit more expensive but better for the points IMO)
    I rarely get the chance to play "up" - that is, within 12" - and still keep my squads safe. I'm very much reserved when it comes to putting my 'Suits in the face of danger. In most of the games I've played, I've rarely had the chance to rapid fire the Plasma Rifles, and I'd rather that one shot be hitting more often than having a second weapon which I might use half the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by rikimaru
    FW are ok but I would lose the bonding and TA and use the points on the XV8's you really do not need TA on a DF it is just not worth the points, and the bonding is a very dubious benefit, mostly because you have the Shas'Ui's LDS which is usually good enough. I think the points would be better spent on making the XV8 suits more versatile units i/e better returns for the points
    The Targeting Array on the 'Fish is there because I had extra points with nowhere, really, to send them. The Bonding, however, is a cheap upgrade and I have re-evaluated my position on the upgrade - it caused a game I played yesterday to be a Draw instead of a Defeat, simply because my lone Shas'ui was able to regroup all by his lonesome, giving my opponent 50% victory points instead of 100%. It saved the day, and I'm going to try it out a little more to firm up my position on whether I like it or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by rikimaru
    These are a seriously dubious choice, they are fragile as it stands anyway and you have a very very small squad, do the math and work out how much damage you could do against a MEQ unit (even with CC) and I guarantee you will not be able to do enough damage to prevent a nasty return attack next turn. the poor save allied with the short ranged weapon and poor BS makes these a very difficult unit to use well and I do not honestly think they are worth the points.
    They are mainly in here because I wanted to try the Vespids out. I like the models, I like the looks of their guns, and I think, if used alright, they will be a good, useful addition to my strategy. I have had no experience with them yet, so I kind of want to try them out before making them a permanent addition to my force. In a higher points game, I will be coupling them with Pathfinders' Markerlights to make their weapons exceptionally deadly.

    Quote Originally Posted by rikimaru
    Seems good but you do not need TA, the HH should NEVER be close enough to any unit to need to use the BC's (and thats why your taking TL I assume), I know its only 5 points but with the vespids points and the 5 pts you have 123points for another Shas'El who I guarantee will be much more usefull than the vespids, with a helios Multi you would kill the same amount of MEQS per turn as the Vespid (at 12" same range as the vespids gun and have JSJ to get you some distance), it would have IC status and you could give it iridium armour to make it even tougher to kill (in fact it would be harder to kill than the vespid unit & give better returns in versitality)
    Good advice, but until I try the Vespids out, I'm keeping them in there. So, the Target Lock will probably stay, as I have found, especially against armies with little anti-tank (played my Eldar buddy and he only had two Bright Lances which had trouble putting any hurt at all on the Hammerhead) I can go forward and use the two Burst Cannons to aid in taking out infantry, while the Railgun either hunts tanks or hunts other/the same infantry. Just a thought of usefulness and using it where I need it to be used, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by rikimaru
    Overall a nice list with a few minor issues (more taste than anything (XV8 fits etc)), you have gone for more MEQ killing but I think the Vespids are the wrong direction, go for an extra Shas'El and re-jig the weapons fits on the XV8's and you will have a much more potent anti MEQ/Armour killing force, but the anti hoard is pretty much untouched and the overall list is very similar in feel to the existing one.
    Hope this helps it is only my opinion at the end of the day so take anything usefull dude.
    It always is a matter of taste, isn't it? I appreciate the comments - pretty much all of them were very sound, and will be under my consideration as I see about revamping the list again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Y'he Sha'is
    I would go with a FB/PR/TA/HWMT & Stim Injectors (if you really want them), same points and slightly more efficient.

    Mathhammer to establish efficiency:
    TLPR @ 12" @ BS4 wounds 1.48 MEQs and with the FB's .55 MEQ wounds @ 12" we have a total of 2.03 wounds for this guy @ 12". (PR hits 32/36, wounds 5/6 [x2], and FB hits 4/6, wounds 5/6)
    PR @ 12" @ BS5 wounds 1.38 MEQs and with the FB's .69 wounds @ 12" we have a total of 2.07 wounds.

    If you plan on using him within 12", a TA is better. Outside of 12" and you see that a TLPR is better (.74 wounds versus .69 wounds).

    Crazy, huh?
    Most of the time, he will probably be outside of 12", as I play very reserved. I haven't gotten over playing very reserved yet, either - it's a big drawback of mine. However, I have also, as I said, already constructed the model and I don't want it to go to waste - I could, however, throw it in as a Monat Team Leader 'Suit with the same setup minus the Stimulant Injectors. I'll fiddle with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Y'he Sha'is
    While the TLPR/TA is more efficient @ 12" (43.9 pts/MEQ wound vs 46.6 pts/MEQ wound) I think I would go TmLd/HWMT/FB/PR/TA for 3 BS4 hits within 12" and for the extra vehicle killing and the "I can kill anything out there" attitude you can have with them. Plus, those FBs really seem to scare my opponents into acting really stupid around my suits.
    I need to playtest, but I do see what you're getting at here. The problem is, again, that I already constructed a 'Suit with T-L Plasma Rifle, Fusion Blaster, and HW Multitracker. I could always pull a weapon off, though... Under consideration.

    Quote Originally Posted by Y'he Sha'is
    I don't think you need the TA on the Devilfish as you are only shooting 3 shots (like 1.5 extra FWs) @ 18" if you don't move more than 6" (no multitracker), but you should always be moving at least 7" for the glancing only rule. You will not get to shoot it very often anyway, and it seems like a waste of points for how often you get to use it.
    It was more of a filler for points, anyways.

    Quote Originally Posted by Y'he Sha'is
    Bigger unit if you have the points, but I don't think you will.
    I disagree. One, they are cheap. Two, they are effective, still getting 10 shots, 20 if in Rapid Fire range. They are a very good, small harassment squad. If the enemy ignores them, that's at least 10 shots a turn pumping into the enemy (generally someone is within range, due to infiltration). They can also claim/hold objectives. If they are not ignored, that's only 70 points getting killed, saving my more expensive units. I wouldn't go more than 12 Kroot, max, with this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Y'he Sha'is
    Everyone talks about what a great MEQ killer these guys are, but I look at it as what a great Vespid killer the basic marine is. They just don't have the necessary ability to weather a barrage from marine fire like the marines can seem to weather their fire. You'll kill a few, but not enough. I think if you expect them to take out MEQs, they should be able to do it really well on their own (like a crisis) and then when you add the rest of the army...LOOK OUT!
    I want to playtest these guys before I drop them, as I really like the models and the possibilities when coupling their firepower with a unit of Pathfinders. However, the point is taken and I think I may wait until a larger points game (1500 or 1850) when I can add in Pathfinders, too. Hmm.

    Quote Originally Posted by Y'he Sha'is
    I don't mind the target lock if you use the tank aggressively like I do. Mine almost never survives a battle, but it does so much damage and havoc to my enemy, it's worth it. If you don't, and you sit back with the hammerhead and fire away, then you should drop it for the extra points.
    I use mine semi-aggressively, usually when the Railgun's accuracy goes awry (I hate missing over and over). So, unless I need the points elsewhere, I'll go ahead and keep the Target Lock on it, but advice is under consideration, as always.

    Quote Originally Posted by Y'he Sha'is
    Good list overall, and my advice is geared to making it that much more efficient and deadly. I hope I explained my points well enough for you.
    You did, and they are under consderation. Thanks very much.

    Thank you both for the comments and great pointers. I'll be checking them out and hopefully will have a revised list up soon. +rep to you both.

  10. #9
    LO's Shadow Captain Lost Nemesis's Avatar
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    830 (x8)

    Here's the revamped list, hopefully it'll do fine.. I kept that one Shas'el basically the way he is, because I really like the look of the model (PR on one arm, and the second PR on the shoulder of that arm.. looks really neat) so.. I'll see which version I like better. Here we go with version 3.0:

    HQ

    [1] Shas'el
    +Twin-Linked Plasma Rifle
    +Fusion Blaster
    +Hard-Wired Multitracker
    =97 points

    [1] Shas'el
    +Plasma Rifle
    +Fusion Blaster
    +Targeting Array
    +Hard-Wired Multitracker
    +Stimulant Injector
    =107 points

    Elites

    [1] Monat Crisis Suit
    +Team Leader upgrade
    +Plasma Rifle
    +Fusion Blaster
    +Targeting Array
    +Hard-Wired Multitracker
    =77 points

    [1] Monat Crisis Suit
    +Team Leader upgrade
    +Plasma Rifle
    +Missile Pod
    +Targeting Array
    +Hard-Wired Multitracker
    =77 points

    [6] Stealth Suits
    =180 points

    Troops

    [11] Fire Warriors
    [1] Shas'ui
    +Bonding Knife
    [1] Devilfish
    +Decoy Launchers
    =220 points

    [10] Kroot Warriors
    =70 points

    Heavy Support

    [1] Hammerhead
    +Railgun
    +Burst Cannons (x2)
    +Decoy Launchers
    +Multitracker
    +Target Lock
    =170 points

    Total Points = 998
    Total Models = 34

    Comments, suggestions?

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