[2000] all the goodies list - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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  1. #1
    Member Calaban's Avatar
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    [2000] all the goodies list

    [paste from some.... other board]

    With some recently built Tau models (of the recent new additions), I just got done making up a 2000 point list that incorporates them.. and WOW! I liked its potential so much that Im going to post it. So please.. rate this army on as many leves as you can: competitive, MEQ abusing, Fluffy, etc.

    Shas'O: CIB, AFP, Pos. Relay, HWMT, Stim inj.

    Shas'El : Plas, Missile, FB, Bonding knife, HWMT
    -- Bodyguard: Plas, Missile, TA, HWMT
    -- Bodyguard: Plas, Missile, TA, HWMT

    3 Fireknives (PR, MP,MT), Team Leader, Bonding knife

    3 Helios (PR,FB, MT), Team Leader, Bonding Knife

    2 DeathRains (TwMP,Fl)

    6 Firewarriors, Shas'ui, Bonding Knife, Markerlight, Photon and EMP grenades

    15 kroot

    15 kroot

    Pathfinder Team: 4 pathfinders
    -- Devilfish, MT, 1 Seeker

    Vespid Stingwings: 7 Stingwings, 1 Strain Leader

    1 Piranha: Fusion, TA, 1 Seeker

    1 SniperTeam

    1 'Aggro' Ionhead: Ioncannon, Bursts, MT, DL, 1 seeker

    BroadSide: Team Leader, TA, HWDC, HWTL, Bonding Knife
    --2 Shield Drones
    ----- Broadside, TA

    ----------
    2000 points

    Of course I would love to have more Firewarriors, but there is just too much other stuff I want to field. Anyways, this is 12 suits, 6 markerlights, 3 seekers, and lotsa lotsa new stuff! I did a LOT of trimming and tweking to squeeze this much stuff in.. as I wanted the pathfinders both for the markerlight boost to my crisis shooting, and for the marker BEACON on their transport, which goes nicely with the positional relay, and... 12 suits.

    One of my few regrets is no decoys on the piranha, and nor fletchette dischargers on the ionhead, both of these are favorite goodies of mine, but both took a hit to trimming... As did Targeting arrays on my suits (my new trend was nearly entirely BS4 Tau). But I fell back on traditional suit configs, and squeezed in a few more markerlights to compensate.

    There are plenty of tricks in this army to exploit many different situations: one example is the EMP grenades on the FW... something never really seen or expected. But a Better one is the landing gear on 3 vehicles, that can cut off LOS, and help to 'Castle' against asaulty armies... oh, as well as provide JSJ cover in exactly the rights spot. This is something new I am eager to explore, since it occured to me that this is something the Tau can do that no one else can: Land big armor 11/12/13 skimmers... and all the tactical implications that can give. In fact I am eager to try the 'open the drawbridge' tactic of having ammased firepower 'huddled' behind the landed skimmers, and at the right moment, the skimmers all lift off, and everyone opens fire! Ya see, the 'LOS blocking vehicle that can lift off and let everyone shoot under it' is something that many or even all players have no tactical experience dealing with... and this can only lead to mistakes.

    Tau

    An elementary particle of the lepton family, having a mass about 3,550 times that of the electron, a negative electric charge, and a mean lifetime of 3 x 10-13 seconds in close combat.

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  3. #2
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    Here's a competetive analysis

    Your Shas'o is a huge points sink with all those wiz bang upgrades. Drop him to an 'el and give him fireknife or helios config with TA.

    By giving the second HQ a bodyguard, you are wasting an important skill of his, IC status. JSJ and IC status will keep both of them alive the whole game, well, should anyway with proper deployment and tactics.

    I like the elite selections. One question though, is that a flamer you put one the deathrain uint? If it is, replace it with a target lock, that way two different enemy units can be targeted by them.

    I like to see kroot in peoples list, they perform well. I might suggest replacing 4 or 5 with hounds though. Hounds rock in the new codex.

    The FW team is just waiting for something to massacre them. Such a low number will last about two turns. Drop the markerlight and the photon grenades and put them in a fish, or bump their number to 10 or 12.

    Add a piranha or two and you should be good to go. A single piranha won't last very long and has limited firepower.

    Good luck.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  4. #3
    Member Calaban's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Otsego View Post
    Here's a competetive analysis

    Your Shas'o is a huge points sink with all those wiz bang upgrades. Drop him to an 'el and give him fireknife or helios config with TA.
    sure he may have a lot of apparent 'extras' but they are all purposefull... the CIB benefits from BS5, the AFP is a harrassment weapon complemented by IC status, The Relay gives me deepstrike options with the other 11 crisis suits out there, the stim injector makes him last longer from any mistakes.. keeping that relay and harrassment weapon on the table. I like him.. even though indeed an AFP is wasted on a BS5 model... oh well!
    By giving the second HQ a bodyguard, you are wasting an important skill of his, IC status. JSJ and IC status will keep both of them alive the whole game, well, should anyway with proper deployment and tactics.
    I can live with the drawback of a targetable HQ choice for a number of reasons: 1) a BS4 Fireknife team... these are awesome, and there is no other way to get it. So this old Paradigm of IC only HQs is falling more and more to the wayside in my opinion 2) the sheer number of suits I am fielding.. count them in their entirety, and you will see that theres not many more places to fit them.

    I like the elite selections. One question though, is that a flamer you put one the deathrain uint? If it is, replace it with a target lock, that way two different enemy units can be targeted by them.
    Flamers are nice.. especially in numbers.. when their time comes. I cant tell how many times I have kept those flamers in mind, and positionsed those deathrains near a unit about to be assaulted, for a J-Flamer-J the turn before an assault... often the csualties inflicted by the templates actually burns the assaulters OUT of charge range.. Oh well, when I field DeathRains, its either always a Flamer (for cheapness and the above tactica), or a TA. A TL is not really an option for me, because I field them in pairs, and pairs of deathrains generally need to combine their firepower to reliably knock a transport or light vehicle out.

    I like to see kroot in peoples list, they perform well. I might suggest replacing 4 or 5 with hounds though. Hounds rock in the new codex.
    Indeed I would have fielded some houds.. but I dont have any, and the cost analysis of Kroot hounds I read a while ago still places them as the most expensive per model for what you get in the entire game! And indeed, 15 Kroot do perform well, I can boast now that 15 kroot took down a Daemon Prince after two rounds of combat, even with it striking first and taking 5 kroot each swing! you GO Kroot!

    The FW team is just waiting for something to massacre them. Such a low number will last about two turns. Drop the markerlight and the photon grenades and put them in a fish, or bump their number to 10 or 12.
    The Firewarrior Team is extraneous, and only there because it is mandatory. As such I changed its role from 'front line warrior' to 'commandos in the ruins, markerlighting for the big guys out there'

    Add a piranha or two and you should be good to go. A single piranha won't last very long and has limited firepower.
    Cant argue that either, but one does fine. The Seeker, the 'free' drones, the skimmer wall all make it far more usefull than the single gun on it, which is more of a bonus. All the other tricks it can do (dont forget tank shock.. or the 'new' trick of mine: landing and blocking LOS as required)

    Good luck.
    Thank you, and I appreciate the input, and dont want to 'do a Rikimaru' and simply discount everything you say (wink wink)... nono, I am simply reinforcing my stance and choices and explaining them further... believe me, If a good reccomendation comes along, I will be the first to say "Wow! what a GREAT idea!!!".
    Tau

    An elementary particle of the lepton family, having a mass about 3,550 times that of the electron, a negative electric charge, and a mean lifetime of 3 x 10-13 seconds in close combat.

  5. #4
    The deep down truth Rikimaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calaban View Post
    Shas'O: CIB, AFP, Pos. Relay, HWMT, Stim inj.
    This is a pointlessly expensive model, CIB while benefiting from BS5 still suffers from appaling STR and average AP (yeah we all know about the amazing AP1 if a 6 is rolled) but your paying 25 points extra for the BS5 and taking a weapon that gets no benefit from it.
    You have what is basically a tgh3, SV4/5 enemy killing HQ that may kill 5 or 6 models if its lucky a turn (and a lot less MEQS) and has absolutlly no other targeting options, most armour is invulnerable to it and tough things like Termies (or even 3+ save models) will just laugh at it.
    Quite honestly I think its a total waste of a valuable HQ slot, you are wasting points on what should be you primary weapons platform, the Shas'O has IC status, great BS, is tough to kill and with the right weapons can take anything down, what can this do really? kill infantry.
    Stims are cool.
    Quote Originally Posted by Calaban View Post
    Shas'El : Plas, Missile, FB, Bonding knife, HWMT
    -- Bodyguard: Plas, Missile, TA, HWMT
    -- Bodyguard: Plas, Missile, TA, HWMT

    3 Fireknives (PR, MP,MT), Team Leader, Bonding knife

    3 Helios (PR,FB, MT), Team Leader, Bonding Knife

    2 DeathRains (TwMP,Fl
    I saw your post about teams and BS4 and to me your looking at this all wrong, you have 2 teams of XV8's and both have a team leader each WHY please dont tell me its just for a bonding knife, you should have a team leader with TA and HW multi and HW TL, now you have a model with BS4 and each team can split fire between 2 targets thus maximising there usefulness.
    Even the Helios benefits from a leader with TA and HW multi and HW TL because it allows targeting of 2 vehicles (you would be surprised how often two vehicles are close together).
    The deathrains should have TA's and another suit upgraded to TL with TA, HW TL, a deathrain is a support suit intended to stay at distance and pour fire into distant (36") targets, if you take all 3 with TA you have 6 possible shots hitting on 3's with a re-roll.
    This is a killer unit for your type of list as it can support the other units in your list from range and be kept back as a scoring unit/objective taker as well.
    Now to do this you will need to lose the Bodyguard units and good riddence I say, take the Shas'El and have him stick close to the helios or fireknives, he can add firepower and his IC status keeps him safe.
    You will have 3 teams of XV8's all of which have 1 BS4 model (1 more than you BG team) all can split fire for a total of 6 targets a turn and you lose one fireknife but the advantages far outweigh the loss of that one model.
    This is meant as advice not criticism and will make for a much more efficient XV8 firebase.
    Two last things
    1 lose the bonding, it is not needed on fireknife or deathrain XV8's and a Helios team should kill whatever they hit anyway, IC XV8's should be monat anyway so dont need it, use the points on something useful.
    2 Pos relay waste of time, you should NOT EVER be deep striking with XV8's EVER (not shouting emphasising)

    This is how the HQ/XV8 elites should look:
    Shas'O: PL, FU or MP, HWMT, Stim inj.

    Shas'El : Plas, Missile, TA, HWMT

    3 Fireknives (2 with PR, MP,MT), Team Leader, PR, MP, HW MT/TL and TA

    3 Helios (2 with PR,FB, MT), Team Leader, PR, FB, HW MT/TL and TA
    3 DeathRains (2 TL-MP,TA) Team Leader, TL-MP, HW TL and TA

    Quote Originally Posted by Calaban View Post

    6 Firewarriors, Shas'ui, Bonding Knife, Markerlight, Photon and EMP grenades
    Waste of time if your going to take 6 FW just to have the troop choice just take 6 and be done with it, why are these even bonded, they will never get close enough to use the EMP, photons are a waste of time (I mean c'mon the attacking unit loses its charge bonus, wow thats going to help 6 FW's), the ML will do nothing for half the game (if your lucky), just hide these in your quarter and use em to secure the quarter.
    Quote Originally Posted by Calaban View Post
    15 kroot

    15 kroot
    I am totaly puzzled by this quote about Hounds "and the cost analysis of Kroot hounds I read a while ago still places them as the most expensive per model for what you get in the entire game" who the hell came up with this gem, Hounds cost 6 points each for that you get marine EQ STR, WS, 3 attacks on the charge at character level INT and with proper usage they will always make back their points, most simpy becasue they make the Kroot themselves a viable CC option, the Kroot can hold back and hit after the hounds, keep the hounds and Kroot in equal numbers (removal of casualties) and you can use the Kroot hounds INT for testing, I have beaten down Marine assault squads (including a chaplain), Raptors, Hormies and even in 1 game took down a 5 man squad of assualt terminators with a 10 kroot and 8 hound team.
    Do not believe that stupid article, Kroot hounds are a must with any Kroot squad, trust me and at 6 points are the bargain of 40K (even without a save) they only have to kill 3 marines or 1 termie to make their points back, but more importantly they bolster the Kroot nicely and extend their usefulness to more than just a pill box unit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Calaban View Post
    Pathfinder Team: 4 pathfinders
    -- Devilfish, MT, 1 Seeker
    Why? why are you spending 95pts on a vehicle and taking 4 PF, these ae going to hit with two ML's a turn on average thats nearly 36pts per ML hit and thats if the team stays in 1 piece. 4 models is painfully small, again I ask why, what is the point, I would either lose the Pirahna and boost to full 8 man or lose this team and take another Pirahana either way your going to have something thats more use than this unit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Calaban View Post
    Vespid Stingwings: 7 Stingwings, 1 Strain Leader
    Again unit is to small, for Vespids to be effective (heh thats a contridiction in terms Vespid/efficient) they have to be a full sized squad, the range of the weapon and there lack of JSJ and pitiful save means they have to be able to punish what they hit, 8 wont cut it.
    In fact problem solved, lose these boost up the PF squad to 8 and take another Pirahna then you have the other squads sorted out as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Calaban View Post
    1 Piranha: Fusion, TA, 1 Seeker
    As said above lose the Vespids and take another, 2 man teams are better than one (ask Israfel)

    Quote Originally Posted by Calaban View Post
    1 SniperTeam
    Meeeh cheap enough I suppose, but I find em a contradiction in terms (heavy with STR6 weapons ok), dont rate them and I dont think I have ever seen them do anything useful in the games I have seen em in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Calaban View Post
    1 'Aggro' Ionhead: Ioncannon, Bursts, MT, DL, 1 seeker

    BroadSide: Team Leader, TA, HWDC, HWTL, Bonding Knife
    --2 Shield Drones
    ----- Broadside, TA
    To my way of thinking the XV88's do not fit your list, you have a highly mobile list with plenty of anti armour/vehicle killing potential locked into your XV8 contingent, you do not really need the 2 railguns of the Broadsides, also you dont need the Ion cannon, what you do need is anti infantry (something you really lack and you could find yourself swamped by things like Nids/Orks etc).
    What you need is two basic Railheads with RG,BC,MLTI and DL for 165 pts each, with these you will have the means to really hurt infantry units at SV4/5/6 and this is what they should be targeted on primarily, though the railguns can still hit heavy armour (AV13/14) if needed.
    I honestly think these would offer your list a lot more than the two XV88's and the Ion, I know your probably going to say Oh Rikkis done it again but I honestly think the railheads will help your list.

    Anyway thats just my advice, if you take it you will have a much better XV HQ/Elite base that can take out a higher number of units and with one more BS4 model.
    You will have a much more effective PF team which can guide the Railheads and other units and stay effective longer.
    2 Pirahnas which will offer much more potential headaches than a reduced Vespid squad
    A much more effective Kroot contingent with the hounds.
    The FW (or lack of them) is a bit of a worry but I see no sense in all the extras these had, they are a unit that lacks any aggresive potential so should just be sat in deep cover taking potshots and hiding.
    2 railheads offering much needed anti infantry plus some anti armour.
    Anyway hope this gives you some thought/ideas and none of it is meant as criticism just constructive advice, good luck and sorry for the length but thought you would aprreciate the detail.
    Oh and I never just discount things, I dismiss them with style, panache and grace 'wink wink' (bloody smilies stil not workin LO tech dudes)
    1984

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    Riki beat me to alot of this but here goes anyway...

    Quote Originally Posted by Calaban View Post
    sure he may have a lot of apparent 'extras' but they are all purposefull... the CIB benefits from BS5, the AFP is a harrassment weapon complemented by IC status, The Relay gives me deepstrike options with the other 11 crisis suits out there, the stim injector makes him last longer from any mistakes.. keeping that relay and harrassment weapon on the table. I like him.. even though indeed an AFP is wasted on a BS5 model... oh well!
    These weapons are good for horde armies, and for them to be effective you have to be close to the enemy, which against a horde list, that's the last place you want your expensive HQ since they tend to be fast, usually very fast. Deepstriking suits is a bad idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Calaban View Post
    I can live with the drawback of a targetable HQ choice for a number of reasons: 1) a BS4 Fireknife team... these are awesome, and there is no other way to get it. So this old Paradigm of IC only HQs is falling more and more to the wayside in my opinion 2) the sheer number of suits I am fielding.. count them in their entirety, and you will see that theres not many more places to fit them.
    If you don't play/plan for the IC rule then I guess it would seem pointless. You do have a lot of suits, I'll give you that. Maybe these two could be dropped to help fill in some holes further down on the list.

    Quote Originally Posted by Calaban View Post
    Flamers are nice.. especially in numbers.. when their time comes. I cant tell how many times I have kept those flamers in mind, and positionsed those deathrains near a unit about to be assaulted, for a J-Flamer-J the turn before an assault... often the csualties inflicted by the templates actually burns the assaulters OUT of charge range.. Oh well, when I field DeathRains, its either always a Flamer (for cheapness and the above tactica), or a TA. A TL is not really an option for me, because I field them in pairs, and pairs of deathrains generally need to combine their firepower to reliably knock a transport or light vehicle out.
    I run a pair of deathrain suits with TA on each and make one a team leader with HWTL. They are reliably capable of taking out two light vehicles each turn. For 126 pts for the pair, it doesn't take long to get their points. They are lingering in the back, in and around cover using JSJ, and have never been assaulted, thus never needing any defensive weapons. I think adding flamers to a unit like this is self-defeating. What I mean is, in the back of your mind your thinking that if you make a mistake with guys, whether deployment or movement sometime in the game, you've got a backup plan for when they die. Plan to stay alive, not for a funeral. We all know what happens when one of our units (except kroot) gets assaulted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Calaban View Post
    Indeed I would have fielded some houds.. but I dont have any, and the cost analysis of Kroot hounds I read a while ago still places them as the most expensive per model for what you get in the entire game! And indeed, 15 Kroot do perform well, I can boast now that 15 kroot took down a Daemon Prince after two rounds of combat, even with it striking first and taking 5 kroot each swing! you GO Kroot!
    I also share your enthusiasm for kroot. But if you had 10 kroot with 5 hounds, not only is it 5 points cheaper, but the out come of said battle would have been the same, however now you are capable of doing greater damage to a greater number of threats. You can charge MEQs, strike first with the hounds, last with the kroot, and all with an extra attack for each model. I'm not sure what cost analysis you read, but it sounds like bunk.

    Quote Originally Posted by Calaban View Post
    The Firewarrior Team is extraneous, and only there because it is mandatory. As such I changed its role from 'front line warrior' to 'commandos in the ruins, markerlighting for the big guys out there'
    Lose just two guys from this squad and they have to start making ld checks. I have found that infantry types with markerlights get targeted first because people are aware of what they can do, which is why I dropped the pathfinders from my list. The ML has good range but the unit firing them aren't great at shooting so you are paying all those points for two markerlight hits a turn. Too expensive for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Calaban View Post
    Cant argue that either, but one does fine. The Seeker, the 'free' drones, the skimmer wall all make it far more usefull than the single gun on it, which is more of a bonus. All the other tricks it can do (dont forget tank shock.. or the 'new' trick of mine: landing and blocking LOS as required)
    One piranha doesn't make much of a wall. Most armies have high enough leadership that having to make a target priority test isn't going to stop them from shooting what they want. Tank shocking and your 'new trick' are terrific ways of getting rid of a low AV vehicle. Honestly, landing is a terrible idea for a piranha, they can be shot down with relatively low strength weapons and if they get assaulted they get hit automatically. Not good either way, gotta keep them moving. That single gun, hitting with a low BS, doesn't have a very good chance at killing much, you need to add some more to this unit to get reliable kills with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Calaban View Post
    Thank you, and I appreciate the input, and dont want to 'do a Rikimaru' and simply discount everything you say (wink wink)... nono, I am simply reinforcing my stance and choices and explaining them further... believe me, If a good reccomendation comes along, I will be the first to say "Wow! what a GREAT idea!!!".
    I think that these discussions have been going on for long enough that most of the "WOW! Great idea!" ideas have already been recomended, we are talking about small changes now that make our lists just that little bit better.
    Last edited by Otsego; December 31st, 2006 at 15:01.
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