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  1. #1
    The deep down truth Rikimaru's Avatar
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    "007 GT list (changes)

    I have made some prospective changes to my 2007 GT list (buying my ticket next month) and I want some opinions on the changes, I have posted the old list below followed by the new list

    Old list

    Quote Originally Posted by rikimaru
    HQ

    Shas'El
    Fusion / Plasma / HW multi / TA / Sim injectors 107pts

    Shas'El
    MP/ Plasma / HW multi / TA / iridium amour/ 117pts
    These are sorted and will not be changed


    Elites
    XV8 plasma / fusion / TA /HW multi 75pts Monat helios team leader

    6 X Stealths one with Fusion BC 182pts

    Troops
    10 Fire Warriors Shas'Ui upgrade 110pts
    1 Devilfish with decoys / BC 85pts

    2 units of Kroot
    Unit 1, 10 Kroot with 8 Kroot hounds 118pts
    Unit 2, 10 Kroot with 8 Kroot Hounds 118pts

    Fast attack
    Drone squad 8 drones 96pts

    Heavy
    2 X Hammer railheads, railgun, BC, MT, DC 330pts total
    Skyray TA, BC, MLTI DC 160pts
    New List

    HQ

    Shas'El
    Fusion / Plasma / HW multi / TA 97pts

    Stim injectors are OK but I really have not needed them that much (and I play some very good players)

    Shas'El
    MP/ Plasma / HW multi / TA 97pts
    Same goes for Iridium armour, if I need to save with 36" range and JSJ plus IC status then I am doing something wrong.

    Elites
    XV8 Twin linked MP/TA/HW TL, team leader 62pts
    XV8 Twin linked MP/ TA 53pts

    I have been test playing this set up in friendly games and for the points this is a frighteningly effective suit configuration, 2 STR7 practically guaranteed hits per suit just seems a bargain and the fact I can target two units a turn or concentrate fire seems to me to good to pass up, this to me is a viable Ion cannon replacement with better survivability, better hit rate and more versatile because it can split fire between 2 units and its a tiny bit cheaper

    5 X Stealths one with Fusion BC 152pts
    I wanted to keep the fusion because I think it will have some surprise value, with all the other anti armour in the list I think this will go overlooked, it also has inst kill value, all in all I am not particularly a fan of fusions on stealths but I can I think in tournies it may well be worth the investment, especially now special characters are allowed (who knows a lucky hit may well insta kill one)

    Troops
    10 Fire Warriors Shas'Ui upgrade 130pts
    1 Devilfish with DL 85pts
    These stayed as before, I like these and I think they will perform

    2 units of Kroot
    Unit 1, 10 Kroot with 8 Kroot hounds 118pts
    Unit 2, 10 Kroot with 8 Kroot Hounds 118pts

    As before I think these are better than FW, they are more versatile and can shoot, assault and infiltrate.

    Fast attack
    Drone squad 8 drones 96pts

    These with my Shas'El helios are my premier transport/passenger killer unit, though I will not be using the circular drone protection technique, not because its illegal or anything but because I know that in a GT there will be players who will think its unsportsmanlike and I do not want to:
    (1) Argue and get marked down for arguing the tactic
    (2) Get marked down for using the tactic, even if the opponent does not argue it because the opponent considers it unsportsmanlike.
    I can still use the drones to protect the Shas with intelligent positioning (though not as effectively) and I still want the drones support and firepower but I want to avoid any issues as I know I will be having to explain the tactic and some obnoxious git will argue it to the max and if he loses the argument will mark me down anyway, what do you people think am I right not to use the tactic and forgo maximum protection.

    Heavy
    2 X Hammer railheads, railgun, BC, MT, DC 330pts total
    Skyray TA, BC, MLTI DC 160pts

    These are staying as before

    This totals 1498 pts
    9 scoring units, this is important with the new rules for GT's
    67 models
    Good anti infantry
    Good anti armour
    Decent anti MEQ
    Mobile
    Good anti infiltrate with the Kroot

    So what do you think I know its not vastly different but is the old list better, or is this one superior, opinions please.

    1984

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  3. #2
    Member Fox3's Avatar
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    Elites
    XV8 Twin linked MP/TA/HW TL, team leader 62pts
    XV8 Twin linked MP/ TA 53pts
    since you have an extra elite slot, consider changing this to 2 monats. it saves you 10 points, and you can move them independently if need be and not have to worry about losing them both to one unit of fire. there is no reason not to do this that i can see. actually this is exactly how i run my suits.

    5 X Stealths one with Fusion BC 152pts
    i would try to make this a full team. i don't have a real reason why, it just seems less powerful having only 4 BCs

    2 units of Kroot
    Unit 1, 10 Kroot with 8 Kroot hounds 118pts
    Unit 2, 10 Kroot with 8 Kroot Hounds 118pts
    I love this. i always wanted to fit 2 squads of kroot.

    Troops
    10 Fire Warriors Shas'Ui upgrade 130pts
    1 Devilfish with DL 85pts
    did you give your shas'ui 20 points of wargear? if this is a mistake, that is enough points for your 6th stealth member.

    So what do you think I know its not vastly different but is the old list better, or is this one superior, opinions please.
    whoops, i didn't read this bit till i was done picking at your list. To answer your question, i think the more recent list is much better, much more trimmed and efficient. disregard the rest of my post, i misunderstood your reason for posting.
    "To follow any path other than the Tau'va is to doom us all. Only together and with courage and discipline shall we stand victorious. Fight with fire and courage and nothing can stand against us."

    - Commander Shadowsun

  4. #3
    LO's Shadow Captain Lost Nemesis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fox3 View Post
    since you have an extra elite slot, consider changing this to 2 monats. it saves you 10 points, and you can move them independently if need be and not have to worry about losing them both to one unit of fire. there is no reason not to do this that i can see. actually this is exactly how i run my suits.
    Be warned when commenting on riki's lists - he's one of the Tau gurus on LO, and he pretty much never does anything with his list without thinking long and hard about it first, which is a definite plus when he churns something like this out.

    I disagree here - they don't exactly need to be in separate squads to be effective, and I think (not sure, correct me if I'm wrong anyone!) that it is frowned upon to either have the same number of Elites as Troops, or to max out on your Elites, especially when you're Tau and you have such an obvious advantage (Monat Suits) as that. I think the Crisis Suits could stay as a pair, really.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox3 View Post
    i would try to make this a full team. i don't have a real reason why, it just seems less powerful having only 4 BCs
    I agree here, though there really isn't anywhere that the points can be found. The only things I can think of are to split up the two Crisis Suits into Monats then take the points that the Fire Warriors leave and boost them up... and I don't know if that would mark down his composition or anything by doing that with the Crisis Suits. It's not the most important thing, at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox3 View Post
    I love this. i always wanted to fit 2 squads of kroot.
    Echoed. These Kroot squads have a CC punch as well as a harassment shooting punch, making them a very versatile squad. Their infiltration will also help aplenty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox3 View Post
    did you give your shas'ui 20 points of wargear? if this is a mistake, that is enough points for your 6th stealth member.
    Not quite enough, unless he does split up the two Crisis Suits. However, there does seem to either be an adding problem or an omission - riki, are there supposed to be twelve Fire Warriors in this squad, or just the ten?

    Overall, I really like the new list as well, riki. It packs some punch and you obviously know how to use it well. I think you'll do rather well with it - you've slimmed down on some unnecessary upgrades (Iridium Armour, Stim. Injectors, etc.) in order to slide some extra kick into the list itself.

    From the sounds of it, though, I don't think I ever want to attend a GT. :mellow: They sound like a pain!

    Good luck, riki!

  5. #4
    Member Fox3's Avatar
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    Be warned when commenting on riki's lists - he's one of the Tau gurus on LO, and he pretty much never does anything with his list without thinking long and hard about it first, which is a definite plus when he churns something like this out.
    but i also know that he doesn't mind sharing his knowledge/reasoning with us n00bs. If I was scared away by people's reputation, i probably wouldn't post at all! believe me, i read enough here to know the attendant risks with responding to riki :yes: . But i'm also confident that he'll correct me if i'm wrong, and give good reasons why i'm wrong.


    I disagree here - they don't exactly need to be in separate squads to be effective, and I think (not sure, correct me if I'm wrong anyone!) that it is frowned upon to either have the same number of Elites as Troops, or to max out on your Elites, especially when you're Tau and you have such an obvious advantage (Monat Suits) as that. I think the Crisis Suits could stay as a pair, really.
    I don't have any experience with official tournaments like this, and i didn't even think about that. This is the main reason i respond to the gurus here: i always learn something when they reply.
    "To follow any path other than the Tau'va is to doom us all. Only together and with courage and discipline shall we stand victorious. Fight with fire and courage and nothing can stand against us."

    - Commander Shadowsun

  6. #5
    The deep down truth Rikimaru's Avatar
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    724 (x8)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox3 View Post
    but i also know that he doesn't mind sharing his knowledge/reasoning with us n00bs. If I was scared away by people's reputation, i probably wouldn't post at all! believe me, i read enough here to know the attendant risks with responding to riki :yes: . But i'm also confident that he'll correct me if i'm wrong, and give good reasons why i'm wrong.
    Excuse me what risks, heh, I object most vehemently to this most unfair comment:yes:




    Quote Originally Posted by Fox3 View Post
    I don't have any experience with official tournaments like this, and i didn't even think about that. This is the main reason i respond to the gurus here: i always learn something when they reply.
    The fire warriors are 12 strong, missed that on changing the entry, what I meant by staying as before is as one troop choice in a Devilfish as I think they will perform better than 2 smaller 6 man squads (which seems to be the fashion).
    Unfortunately I just could not find the points to take a full Stealth squad but I think the FW squad will benefit more from the extra two members than the Stealths, so FW it is

    I am considering losing the fusion, though I do like that unexpected edge taking it gives.

    The team of XV8's are meant to stay at range (36" plus 6 assault move should keep them out of trouble) and I want them as one unit because I have used Monat's and they tend to get separated out (which is not so much a problem with Helios, my suit of choice usually), I want these to stay together to minimise the risk of any target being out of range of their combined firepower (becasue as I mentioned I will be keeping them as far away as possible to maximise their survivability), or one of the suits getting caught in CC etc, but I can split the firepower when needed, though this is up for change depending on play testing as I am a bit undecided myself.

    The other reason is as Nem said, although composition marking is not a massive issue, composition can affect the comments you get from other players regarding best general and even sportsmanship (I/E not min/maxing or cheesing out) etc, this is why I also mentioned the drone ring tactic, so this is indeed swaying me towards the XV8 team (well done Nem).

    I have much tournie experience and I know there are always a couple of difficult whining gits (usually about 25 years old, living with mum and never had a girlfriend and wearing T'Shirts emblazoned with what they believe is a witty slogan,we have all met one) who will argue every rule, tactic etc that gives the opponent an advantage and conversely these are usually the ones with the cheesy lists (whats good for them is not good for you etc) and you all know what I am like at sticking to my guns (so I want to avoid it if at all possible)
    1984

  7. #6
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    I much prefer the second list to the first. It trims some of the fat away from the list, and gets to the bare-bones. As you have different ideas than I about some of the units uses, I'll just give my opinion on some of the units, maybe it will spark some debate or make you thing a little differently about something.

    Quote Originally Posted by rikimaru View Post
    Shas'El
    Fusion / Plasma / HW multi / TA 97pts
    Nice. I think that the gun drone trick is fine. At first, I hated it (as you know), and I thought it was very unsportmanslike, so you might get that. But as I thought about it, so many other armies do it (eldar with their farseer, for instance, where I play). And ironically enough, it seems fluffy in a matrix sort of way (remember the drillers with the octopus guys taking the missile?).

    Quote Originally Posted by rikimaru View Post
    Shas'El
    MP/ Plasma / HW multi / TA 97pts
    Nice, and a good solid unit that will shoot pretty much at will with nothing being able to shoot back at it because of IC.

    Quote Originally Posted by rikimaru View Post
    XV8 Twin linked MP/TA/HW TL, team leader 62pts
    XV8 Twin linked MP/ TA 53pts
    Going for the deathrain, huh? They are cheap, and effective, but I always have a problem with the loss of the volume of fire that they cause to the whole army. Losing one plasma rifle per turn per suit might not seem like a lot, but there are times when it means so much. But the deathrains do work well at popping tanks & transports. I like the comment on replacing the ioncannon, I never thought of it that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by rikimaru View Post
    5 X Stealths one with Fusion BC 152pts
    Fusion, huh? I always think that if you use it, you are dead next turn by retributive shooting. Sometimes it worth it, but that's me, perhaps you can get them where they can hit and still get behind cover or kill a vehicle without too much problem.


    Quote Originally Posted by rikimaru View Post
    10 Fire Warriors Shas'Ui upgrade 130pts
    1 Devilfish with DL 85pts
    May I suggest a MT. Not because it's the best thing ever, but because it gives 3 BC shots for the cost of a firewarrior, and can sometimes be enough to kill that one extra marine or whatever. Of course, you have to find the points.


    Quote Originally Posted by rikimaru View Post
    Unit 1, 10 Kroot with 8 Kroot hounds 118pts
    Unit 2, 10 Kroot with 8 Kroot Hounds 118pts
    Do you think you need 8 hounds per unit? I like the 4-6 hounds myself, and I've found that they are enough to cause some high initiative wounds. I worry about the footprint of such a big unit, and it's ability to infiltrate against a heavy infiltration army.


    Quote Originally Posted by rikimaru View Post
    Drone squad 8 drones 96pts
    I love this tactic myself. I would try to read the person you are up against. Sometimes, you'll be against a seasoned veteran, and I would protect away. But if you are up against the 25 year-old with the T-shirt you described, then maybe adjust your tactics a bit.

    Quote Originally Posted by rikimaru View Post
    2 X Hammer railheads, railgun, BC, MT, DC 330pts total
    Nice. By the way, what's a DC? I assume you mean DL?


    Quote Originally Posted by rikimaru View Post
    Skyray TA, BC, MLTI DC 160pt
    Still running the Skyray, huh? I have a love/hate relationship with it. The markerlights can be so awesome to help out the hammerheads, and no one seems to shoot at it very often when the HHs are around, but when it's done with its missiles, then I kind of don't know what to do with it, and it's too expensive for me to just leave it as a straight support unit. It is tough to take down, and can score some points for you.

    Of course, these are just my opinions, you know what you are doing better than I. I just wanted to throw in some food for thought.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    "Listen up you primitive screwheads ... see this ... this is my BOOM-stick!" - Ash

    "I told you, it's not Pink! It's Light Red!" Donut on his new power-armor.

  8. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by rikimaru View Post
    Excuse me what risks, heh, I object most vehemently to this most unfair comment:yes:
    The risk being looking like an idiot in front of everybody when riki puts me in my place with his blasted well-thought-out comment!

    and then there is always the fear that you will bust out with the ever-feared "dude" which means the victim is either really wrong or really right!

    Example:
    Negative dude:
    some person giving advice: "get rid of your stealths they are worthless etc."
    Riki: "you call that advice dude"

    Positive dude:
    Army list poster: "here's my army list blah blah"
    Riki: "nice list dude have some rep"

    Regardless, whenever i see "dude" in a riki post i know i'm in for a good read :w00t:
    "To follow any path other than the Tau'va is to doom us all. Only together and with courage and discipline shall we stand victorious. Fight with fire and courage and nothing can stand against us."

    - Commander Shadowsun

  9. #8
    LO's Shadow Captain Lost Nemesis's Avatar
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    riki, if you get a chance to have a battle prior to the GT, I'd be very interested in seeing how this list does, via a battle report or something. :yes:

    To me, it looks quite solid, all the more so because you have such a good idea as to what each unit is going to do or what they will be used for.

    Keep us posted, bud. ^_^

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    Quote Originally Posted by Y'he Sha'is View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rikimaru
    Skyray TA, BC, MLTI DC 160pts
    Still running the Skyray, huh? I have a love/hate relationship with it. The markerlights can be so awesome to help out the hammerheads, and no one seems to shoot at it very often when the HHs are around, but when it's done with its missiles, then I kind of don't know what to do with it, and it's too expensive for me to just leave it as a straight support unit. It is tough to take down, and can score some points for you.
    I'm interested in the choice to take the skyray, too. I would think that, without pathfinders, it doesn't provide enough markerlight support on its own, and has the danger of getting shot out of the sky before all of its seekers can be shot off. So, what role do you use the lone skyray for?

    As much as I know you dislike smart missiles on the Tau mainline battle tanks, riki, wouldn't the SMS be a logical upgrade to the skyray? It's only 10 pts more than the burst cannons, and since you will nearly always be hiding behind cover anyway, and the ray has that built-in MT, couldn't you make use of the ray as a hidden offensive weapon as well? It seems a shame to have a useless chunk of victory points after it's shot its load of seekers off by about the 4th turn.
    ninjabackhand: point and click, again, really? even after i give you an military term "shock tactic" you still call it point and click.
    RIP Warhammer 40,000: 21 Sep 1998 - 24 May 2014

  11. #10
    The deep down truth Rikimaru's Avatar
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    724 (x8)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lost Nemesis View Post
    riki, if you get a chance to have a battle prior to the GT, I'd be very interested in seeing how this list does, via a battle report or something. :yes:

    To me, it looks quite solid, all the more so because you have such a good idea as to what each unit is going to do or what they will be used for.

    Keep us posted, bud. ^_^
    I am busy building and painting the list at the moment, I am aiming for the November heat so I will have plenty of practice with it when the models are built, so yeah I will drop a battle report in.

    Y,he

    The deathrain with TA has advantages, hit rate and cheapness, I now the Plasma is useful (I love the darn thing) but I am trying to build a list that will live in a GT environment, fireknives are fine and so are Helios but the simple fact is for both to get the volume of shots your referring to at the BS of the Deathrain with TA you have to be within 12" and be a Monat with TA at 77pts a suit, now I want to have the most efficient shot delivery system for the longest amount of game turns and the Deathrain allows this, no I don't have a guaranteed MEQ killer but 4 shots hitting on 3+ with a re-roll is going to do damage but I can stay at range and avoid a helluva lot of return fire.

    The Fire Knife and Helios are brilliant suits but I cannot afford two in this list without compromising the list, so actually I am gaining a shot at 24" to 36" and my hit rate goes up, plus I can target two units a turn so I think the deathrains are the way to go, plus I have plasma on the El's at BS5.

    The Stealth fusion all depends on tactics, obviously I won't go charging in and just using it recklessly but one hit on a tank or character can make the stealths points back, as I said I don't usually rate them but the surprise factor may just work nicely, though like I said this is the main part of the list that could be up for a change.

    Skyray, I love it the Seekers are gonna be handy and the ML benefits I have detailed before, they are defensive weapons with no strength so the only way to stop them firing is for the vehicle to be destroyed, they cannot be removed by weapon destroyed results and the Skyray as I have it configured has better BS and can hit 2 units per turn and move 12" and fire, and yeah it is decoys don't know why put DC.

    Kroot hounds are at 8 for two reasons:
    (1) Number of attacks at the better INT and WS, the more attacks at INT5 the better for the Kroot.
    (2) INT 5 and casualties, the more Hounds I have the more chance I have of having an equivilent number of hounds and Kroot left, this is important because the sweeping advance tests are worked out on INT now and I can only use the Kroots better INT if they equal or are of greater number than the Kroot. this is the most important thing for me, the chance of being chased down is greater using the Kroots INT, if I use the Hounds INT I have a better chance of breaking away and falling back, conversely the odds on beating even a Marine unit and chasing it down is improved with the Hounds better INT.
    I can also keep the unit balanced between the Kroots shooting and the Hounds CC abilities by taking casualties from each type of model, if I take 4 hounds then I have to take the casualties from the Kroot to get the balance of numbers needed to use the hounds INT.

    Fox3, Hah yep I do tend to use the 'Dude' word whenever some one does the deluded thing or deserves praise, but I am the nemesis of the deluded, just sometimes that means I am my own nemesis and I suppose I to am a dude. :yes:

    Thanks for the comments dudes, you have reinforced quite a few things I was having doubts/thoughts about, anymore points will be appreciated.
    Last edited by Rikimaru; January 23rd, 2007 at 22:45.
    1984

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