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  1. #1
    Senior Member ZenGamer's Avatar
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    Tau 2000 point hybrid - comment please

    Hoping someone could give me a thumbs up or thumbs down on this list...

    HQ
    (Heavy / Medium Infantry Hunting Commander)
    - Shas'el w/ CIB, Plasma Rifle, Targetting Array, HW Multi Tracker, HW Target Lock, HW Drone Controller, Bonding Knife
    - 2x Shield Drone
    - 2x Shas'vre w/ Missile Pod, Plasma Rifle, Targetting Array, HW Multi-Tracker

    (Armor / Infantry Hunting Commander)
    - Shas'el w/ Fusion Blaster, Plasma Rifle, Targetting Array, HW Multi Tracker, HW Target Lock, HW Drone Controller, Bonding Knife
    (Anti-infantry mobile support) - 2x Shield Drone
    - 2x Shas'vre w/ Fusion Blaster, Plasma Rifle, Targetting Array, HW Multi-Tracker

    (Infantry / Light Armor Hunting Crisis Suits)
    Elite
    - Crisis Suit Team Leader w/ Missile Pod, Plasma Rifle, Targetting Array, HW Multi Tracker, HW Drone Controller, Bonding Knife
    - 2x Shield Drone
    - 1x Crisis Suit w/ Missile Pod, Plasma Rifle, Multi-Tracker

    (Deepstriking Armor hunter)
    - Monat Crisis Suit Team Leader w/ Missile Pod, Twin-linked Fusion Blaster, HW Multi-Tracker

    (Deepstriking Armor hunter)
    - Monat Crisis Suit Team Leader w/ Missile Pod, Twin-linked Fusion Blaster, HW Multi-Tracker


    Troops
    (anti-infantry mobile support)
    - 11x Fire Warriors w/ Pulse Rifles
    - 1x Shas'ui Team Leader w/ Pulse Rifle, Bonding Knife
    - Devilfish w/ Decoy Launchers

    (anti-infantry mobile support)
    - 11x Fire Warriors w/ Pulse Rifles
    - 1x Shas'ui Team Leader w/ Pulse Rifle, Bonding Knife
    - Devilfish w/ Decoy Launchers

    Fast Attack
    (Markerlight Anti-infantry support / Deepstrike aid)
    - 7x Pathfinders w/ Pulse Carbine/Markerlight
    - 1x Shas'ui Team Leader with Pulse Carbine/Markerlight, Bonding Knife
    - Devilfish w/ Decoy Launchers, Marker Beacon

    Heavy Support
    (Markerlight / Anti-infantry support)
    - 2x Sniper Drone Teams

    (Anti-Vehicle / Light Infantry)
    - 1x Hammerhead w/ Railgun, Burst Cannons, Multi-tracker, Decoy Launchers

    (Anti - Medium Vehicle / Heavy Infantry)
    - 1x Hammerhead w/ Ion Cannon, Burst Cannons, Multi-tracker, Decoy Launchers




    The idea is that the Crisis Suits and Fire Warriors do the heavy hitting on the infantry, and the two Monat suits deepstrike with the help of the Pathfinder Devilfish's Marker Beacon to destroy vehicles. The Pathfinder's Markerlights, Sniper drone rail rifles and Markerlights, and Tanks support where necessary.

    What do you think, solid? Also note that I realize most people think that the Fireknife config (Missile Pod/Plasma Rifle) is not ideal, but I feel it is the best against both light and heavy infantry. I just can't justify a burst cannon over a missile pod... only one more shot, lower strength, worse AP, shorter range.... I toyed with Plasma/BC combos and just didn't feel it was good enough, and the BC/MP combo doesn't have the low AP for all the power armor I typically face.

    I tried it out last night (pretty much as shown here) against a tough Chaos list and it performed well. The only thing I couldn't kill was the Demon Prince but I think that was a fluke.

    Last edited by ZenGamer; March 29th, 2007 at 14:41.

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  3. #2
    Ancient Spacefarer Kai-Itza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZenGamer View Post
    HQ
    (Heavy / Medium Infantry Hunting Commander)
    - Shas'el w/ CIB, Plasma Rifle, Targetting Array, HW Multi Tracker, HW Target Lock, HW Drone Controller, Bonding Knife
    - 2x Shield Drone
    - 2x Shas'vre w/ Missile Pod, Plasma Rifle, Targetting Array, HW Multi-Tracker

    (Armor / Infantry Hunting Commander)
    - Shas'el w/ Fusion Blaster, Plasma Rifle, Targetting Array, HW Multi Tracker, HW Target Lock, HW Drone Controller, Bonding Knife
    (Anti-infantry mobile support) - 2x Shield Drone
    - 2x Shas'vre w/ Fusion Blaster, Plasma Rifle, Targetting Array, HW Multi-Tracker
    .
    i like these squads, but in my presonal opinion i find that you're sinking a LOT of points into these units, sure they're powerful and like 'em, but you may need to slim these down a bit, you should loose the TA on the bodyguard suits BS4 might seem tempting but, i've found out that you'll hit just as many times when your BS3 trust me, it happens to me a lot of time during the batte where you only hit with 50% of your shots, it's always good to keep in mind

    Quote Originally Posted by ZenGamer View Post
    (Infantry / Light Armor Hunting Crisis Suits)
    Elite
    - Crisis Suit Team Leader w/ Missile Pod, Plasma Rifle, Targetting Array, HW Multi Tracker, HW Drone Controller, Bonding Knife
    - 2x Shield Drone
    - 1x Crisis Suit w/ Missile Pod, Plasma Rifle, Targetting Array, HW Multi-Tracker
    .
    same for these with the bodyguard's loose the TA you could use the spare points, and you could swap the Shield Drones for Gun Drones, you'll get a cheaper version whilst slimming down on points

    Quote Originally Posted by ZenGamer View Post
    (Deepstriking Armor hunter)
    - Monat Crisis Suit Team Leader w/ Missile Pod, Twin-linked Fusion Blaster, HW Multi-Tracker

    (Deepstriking Armor hunter)
    - Monat Crisis Suit Team Leader w/ Missile Pod, Twin-linked Fusion Blaster, HW Multi-Tracker
    .
    these are all well and good, but you must remember, FB are only range 12"! when you successfully DS, 18" on subesquent turns, and you'll be DSing mostly behind enemy vehicles, i think you should go for either TLMP, MP+PR or the MP+FB combos depending on who your facing.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZenGamer View Post
    Troops
    (anti-infantry mobile support)
    - 11x Fire Warriors w/ Pulse Rifles
    - 1x Shas'ui Team Leader w/ Pulse Rifle, Bonding Knife
    - Devilfish w/ Decoy Launchers

    (anti-infantry mobile support)
    - 11x Fire Warriors w/ Pulse Rifles
    - 1x Shas'ui Team Leader w/ Pulse Rifle, Bonding Knife
    - Devilfish w/ Decoy Launchers
    .
    i like the setup in the Warfishes, but you could squeeze the points a little to give them Photo Grenades and the fish the SMS, the PG can be used to great affect when you're FW's get charged, giving them much more staying power whilst keeping the enemy pinned in combat with them for as long as possible and out of the battle IF they get charged, and the SMS is a great all rounder and perfect for bagging kills out of LOS of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZenGamer View Post
    Fast Attack
    (Markerlight Anti-infantry support / Deepstrike aid)
    - 7x Pathfinders w/ Pulse Carbine/Markerlight
    - 1x Shas'ui Team Leader with Pulse Carbine/Markerlight, Bonding Knife
    - Devilfish w/ Decoy Launchers, Marker Beacon
    .
    i like this setup, nothing wrong here!

    Quote Originally Posted by ZenGamer View Post
    Heavy Support
    (Markerlight / Anti-infantry support)
    - 2x Sniper Drone Teams

    (Anti-Vehicle / Light Infantry)
    - 1x Hammerhead w/ Railgun, Burst Cannons, Multi-tracker, Decoy Launchers

    (Anti - Medium Vehicle / Heavy Infantry)
    - 1x Hammerhead w/ Ion Cannon, Burst Cannons, Multi-tracker, Decoy Launchers
    .
    where can the commander be without his faithful HH tanks!, just one suggestion here if you can, swap the BC for the SMS, priceless when used properly!


    i like this list nonetheless for there are only small changes that could be done to make it more durable, plus i've only given you my personal opinions so you don't have to change it if you don't have to ,

    hope it helps anyhow

    -Kai-Itza-

  4. #3
    Senior Member ZenGamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kai-Itza View Post
    same for these with the bodyguard's loose the TA you could use the spare points, and you could swap the Shield Drones for Gun Drones, you'll get a cheaper version whilst slimming down on points.
    That was a typing error, the second suit can't legally have a TA. I fixed it in the original post.




    Thanks for your comments, I will definitely keep playing around with the list and trying to optimize it.

    I'm not sure about the BS4 on the Commander Bodyguards though.... Whatever that unit trains their guns on needs to die for the Greater Good and I find that I miss A LOT with BS3 making the suits much less effective.

    I am also considering removing the shield drones (or at least one of them) from the 2 member Fireknife team and getting rid of one of the Deepstrike Monats in favor of either a third stationary firewarrior team or beefing up the transports a bit.

    Another thing I am considering is getting rid of one of the sniper drone teams, adding 2 rail rifles to the pathfinders and using the extra points elsewhere.

    And about the hammerheads... I'm not sure I agree that the SMS is better than 2 Burst Cannons... 4 shots vs. 6 shots. Granted, 6" more range and no LOS required, but I feel it's not really worth 20 points. However, I do think I should put a target lock on the HH's so they can use the BC's as strength 5 weapons typically don't do much to vehicles.
    Last edited by ZenGamer; March 29th, 2007 at 15:14.

  5. #4
    Ancient Spacefarer Kai-Itza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZenGamer View Post
    Another thing I am considering is getting rid of one of the sniper drone teams, adding 2 rail rifles to the pathfinders and using the extra points elsewhere..
    don't swap for rail rifles on the pathfinders, although it might sound tempting but, consider this, markerlight bonus or half a chance to kill knock a wound off a model, if it were up to me, i'd stick to the ML's of the PF they're more useful!

    Quote Originally Posted by ZenGamer View Post
    And about the hammerheads... I'm not sure I agree that the SMS is better than 2 Burst Cannons... 4 shots vs. 6 shots. Granted, 6" more range and no LOS required, but I feel it's not really worth 20 points. However, I do think I should put a target lock on the HH's so they can use the BC's as strength 5 weapons typically don't do much to vehicles.
    the SMS are more worth it than the BC, first they don't need LOS, so that they can hide behind terrain if they had their main weapon popped off, they ignore the effects of Target Prioty and night fighting i think (don't have the 'Dex ) also they have greater range to pop targets than the BC, and for an extra 10 points and two less shots, i think they're worth it

    -Kai-Itza-

  6. #5
    Senior Member aussiedave's Avatar
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    Hey i wanted to put my two cents in.

    With your HQ,

    IMO IC status is the most valuable (and free) bonus you can have for a HQ unit. I know it means dropping your Bodyguard, but it will actually make your suit more survivable. This is for two reasons. IC status as stated before, means that you can't even be shot at if you aren't the closest target.
    One model is A LOT easier to put behind a tree and stay hidden than three.
    This means that you have more tactical flexibility with your HQ, and you save a lot of points.

    So what i would do is drop them out, move one or two down into teams in the elite section and only deepstrike one of the suits. There is a reason deepstrike suits are often called suicide suits.

    Plus with the manueverablity of the HH's and a range that can always hit, there isn't as much of a need for those units to get behind enemy lines to kill a tank. Generally the HH's can do it all by themselves.

    Dave
    I don't care what you say. I found a lightsaber in my garage and that makes me a Jedi

  7. #6
    Senior Member ZenGamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aussiedave View Post
    Hey i wanted to put my two cents in.

    With your HQ,

    IMO IC status is the most valuable (and free) bonus you can have for a HQ unit. I know it means dropping your Bodyguard, but it will actually make your suit more survivable. This is for two reasons. IC status as stated before, means that you can't even be shot at if you aren't the closest target.
    One model is A LOT easier to put behind a tree and stay hidden than three.
    This means that you have more tactical flexibility with your HQ, and you save a lot of points.

    So what i would do is drop them out, move one or two down into teams in the elite section and only deepstrike one of the suits. There is a reason deepstrike suits are often called suicide suits.

    Plus with the manueverablity of the HH's and a range that can always hit, there isn't as much of a need for those units to get behind enemy lines to kill a tank. Generally the HH's can do it all by themselves.

    Dave
    I used to agree with you, but I find my tanks are all generally dead by the second turn. My typical opponents have alot of indirect fire, and my brother's IG army has about 10 lascannons and 10 autocannons and there just isn't enough cover to hide the tanks from everything.

    This led to the need for deepstriking suicide suits to kill armor.

    I also face alot of heavy infantry such as Chaos marines, Demon Princes, Terminators and the like. So I found that the firewarriors don't do much to 3+ saves even when I can give them a BS5 with the pathfinders. In order to make crisis suits with BS4, they have to be bodyguards. In a regular elite team, only the team leader can have 2 weapons and BS4. I used to agree with you and keep my commanders as IC's, by themselves, but they didn't have much killing power by themselves and the elite teams could never hit anything. Then again, maybe that's something the pathfinder's could help with...

    But thanks for your comments. I am still toying with alot of potential changes and I may switch back to lone commanders.

  8. #7
    Senior Member aussiedave's Avatar
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    Okay, in response to that, i would say that anything can have a better BS if you use your markerlights properly. That's also why should only take Markerlights on your pathfinders. Markerlights are just way too important to switch out for Railrifles.

    Second point though.

    With your Elites, Can you explain to me theory behind the Twin-linked Fusion Missile Pod loadout on your suicide Monats.

    If you are going to be deepstriking you are going to be very close to the bad guys, so why not replace the Missile pod for a plasma rifle, drop the twin linked fusion to single one and take a Multitracker. You get to rapid fire the plasma rifle, and fire off the Fusion, you don't need the team leader upgrade so save a bunch of points. Win win situation.
    Also the Missile Pod is a nice long range weapon vs the fusion blaster which works best at point blank. To me its just a really weird combination of weapons. The plasma just works so much better in the situation you want to use it in as far im concerned.

    Dave

    p.s. If you have decoys on your tanks then they should be pretty comfortably safe providing you are moving them at least (x) inches every turn. Skimmer rules are great when you get to re roll immobilised. If you are worried about yor first turn then take Disruption Pods. Your tanks should be lasting the distance.
    I don't care what you say. I found a lightsaber in my garage and that makes me a Jedi

  9. #8
    Senior Member ZenGamer's Avatar
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    Below I show the calculated percentages to get a Vehicle Destroyed result for each combination when range is less than 6" against non-skimmers and the points cost for each configuration. The configurations are:

    Twin-Linked Fusion blaster w/ Blacksun Filter (cheapest)
    Twin-Linked Fusion Blaster w/ Targeting Array
    Fusion Blaster/Missile Pod w/ Multi-tracker
    TL Fusion Blaster/Missile Pod w/ Multi-tracker
    Fusion Blaster/Missile Pod w/ Targeting Array & Multi-Tracker


    TLFB 46 pts
    AV10-0.38 AV11-0.36 AV12-0.34 AV13-0.31 AV14-0.27
    TLFB/TA 53 pts
    AV10-0.44 AV11-0.43 AV12-0.41 AV13-0.37 AV14-0.32
    FB/MP/MT 54 pts
    AV10-0.53 AV11-0.44 AV12-0.34 AV13-0.24 AV14-0.18
    TLFB/MP/MT 65 pts
    AV10-0.65 AV11-0.56 AV12-0.45 AV13-0.34 AV14-0.27
    FB/MP/TA/MT 69 pts
    AV10-0.70 AV11-0.58 AV12-0.45 AV13-0.31 AV14-0.24

    I know it is hard to read but I can't seem to get spaces...

    The only two weapons I considered for this purpose was a Fusion blaster by itself, or combined with a missile pod as they are the two best crisis suit weapons against vehicles. I didn't consider plasma because it's not as good as the missile pod against vehicles - the AP 2 means nothing to a vehicle.

    My conclusion was that the 65 pt. TLFB/MP/MT variant was the best considering most side/rear armors are 11 and 12. The fusion is superior to vehicles within 6" which is why twin-linking it is so beneficial, but having only one shot even if it's twin-linked makes the chances of destroying that vehicle less than having the MP also. And this is even more pronounced if you are trying to kill a skimmer... The AP 1 is wasted and you can only glance, so you need more shots to kill it on the glancing table.

    Like you said, this is a suicide unit and unless you get lucky, it only gets one chance to do what it was meant to before it dies. If it fails, it was a waste of points.

    And you are right about using markerlights to good effect... I am seriously considering using lone commanders. Then the question becomes to Shas'o or not to Shas'o... Is the 4+ I save worth it... Hmm....
    Last edited by ZenGamer; March 29th, 2007 at 19:39.

  10. #9
    Senior Member ZenGamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aussiedave View Post
    p.s. If you have decoys on your tanks then they should be pretty comfortably safe providing you are moving them at least (x) inches every turn. Skimmer rules are great when you get to re roll immobilised. If you are worried about yor first turn then take Disruption Pods. Your tanks should be lasting the distance.
    I always move my skimmers and I always take decoy launchers. Against the firepower that is arrayed against me they just don't stay alive. My opponents can get 5-10 glances per turn and they inevitably roll 6's on the glancing table. Even if they don't, a 3 on the glancing table means it doesn't move next turn and then they can penetrate it.

    I just can't seem to keep Tau vehicles alive and it's not as though I'm a NUBE. I'm not the best certainly but I know how to use cover.

  11. #10
    Senior Member aussiedave's Avatar
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    I guess thats why i never deep strike crisis suits.

    You just proved it yourself. Even if you everything goes right for you, you still only have a 60% chance of Destroying a vehicle with armour 11 (less than 50 hgiher than that) with your best set-up. For a one shot wonder unit i would want something a little more concrete than that. You have a three in five chance of killing armour 11 and then a big chance of getting taken out next turn.

    Instead (for taking out transports and low armour vehicles) you can take a two man deathrain team (twin linked Missile pods with TA (team leader with HWTL) which you didn't do a run down for) which has an effective range of 42" (with the JSJ) and can be positioned behind something to avoid return fire. It can be used every turn of the game (not just turns one through-at max-turn three) and is very cost effective and always makes its points back.

    I just don't get your tactics or your setups.
    By not deep striking these guys (even with your crazy TLFB MP set up) you just have so much more that you can do and acheive. But if you weren't going to deepstrike these guys i am pretty sure you wouldn't be equiping these guys like this anyway right?

    Dave

    p.s. i noticed that you said that people around here didn't like fireknives. I'm fairly certain that MP/PR MT is one of the most commonly found suits on this forum. THey are generally loved and used.

    I would say that mostly people use Fireknives, Helios and Deathrains. They seem to be the most effective suit builds that you can get.


    edited bit, because i missed your last post.

    I wasn't implying that you don't know what you are doing or don't know how to use cover. I'm just saying that Tau tanks are very hardy units, and probably anybody who plays against 10 lascannons is going to lose his main tanks. The benefit that Tau tanks have is there mobility. They can move a good distance to get LOS on an enemies Basilisk or Leman Russ or whatever. Even if your hammerheads only get one turn to do their thing, they can generally kill an opponents main battletank Landraider or whatever in that time (especially if you are using two of them in conjunction with markerlights). Though if you are taking on IG i would be firing off subs shots every turn to kill guard in droves.
    I don't care what you say. I found a lightsaber in my garage and that makes me a Jedi

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