[2000] Eldar, needs tankbusting - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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  1. #1
    Senior Member Bob Dole's Avatar
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    [2000] Eldar, needs tankbusting

    HQ:
    Farseer
    -Stats remarkably akin to those of Eldrad Ulthuan
    =210pts


    ELITE:
    Striking Scoprions
    -6x Scorpion
    -1x Exarch w/ Chainsabres, Shadowstrike
    =149pts



    Fire Dragons
    -6x Dragon
    =96pts


    Harlequins
    -1x Troop Master w/ Power Weapon & Shuriken Pistol
    -1x Shadow Seer
    -1x Death Jester
    -2x Harlequin w/ Fusion Pistol & CCW
    -4x Harlequin w/ Shuriken Pistol & Kiss
    -1x Harlequin w/ Shuriken Pistol & CCW
    =276pts


    TROOP:
    Dire Avengers
    -8x Avenger
    -1x Exarch w/ Power Weapon, Shimmer Shield, Defend, Bladestorm
    =165pts


    Rangers
    -5x Pathfinder
    =120pts


    Guardian Defenders
    -10x Defender
    -Brightlance Platform
    -Warlock w/ Embolden
    =140pts


    FAST ATTACK:
    Warp Spiders
    -9x Spider
    -1x Exarch w/ Extra Death Spinner, Power Blades, Withdraw
    =262pts


    HEAVY SUPPORT:
    Falcon
    -Starcannon
    -Shuriken Catapult
    -Holo Field
    -Spirit Stones
    =195pts



    Falcon
    -Scatter Laser
    -Shuriken Catapult
    -Holo Field
    -Spirit Stones
    =185pts


    Wraithlord
    -Brightlance
    -Eldar Missile Launcher
    =155pts


    TOTAL=1953pts



    The biggest problem I'm looking at this list, I think, is that I'm running a little light on tankbusting. If necessary I can fire off Guide on both the Wraithlord and the Guardian squad so my Brightlances should both be reasonably mobile -and- reliable, however that's still only two guns (plus the EML.)



    The Fire Dragons should pop anything they get into 6", and possibly even 12", of, but they need to get in close before the rest of my army is shot to pieces. Depending on the table and game, I'll deploy them in a Falcon to give them a head start, but the Falcons are mostly there for anti-infantry (and light vehicle) duties and dumping 300 points into a unit than can get popped by a lucky lascannon isn't my idea of prudent. The Falcons and Fire Dragons do provide emergency or mid-game tank busting power, regardless.



    The other issue I want to address, not as a problem so much as a explaination, is the odd counts on the Scorpions and Avengers. I originally started a Ulthwe list, which I then put on hold when I learned a new codex was coming out 'soon' (aparently a year and a half means soon.) Fortunately I didn't go too nuts on collecting Guardians, however I still found myself with 8 Black Defenders and 6 Black Storms. I have enough weapon platform crew models that I an convert some extra models to up my counts to full 10-man squads in each unit (although that brings my list to 2013.) I decided to drop the sizes down to what I already own and have painted, however, in order to introduce some wiggle room for figuring out how to add some more tank busting.

    I do believe the Scorpions need a larger unit, however, or I'm going to have problems with close combat.

    The two possibilities I'm seriously looking at are either adding in a Vyper with a Brightlance, or squeezing in a Waveserpent with a TL Brightlance. I'm leaning towards the Vyper as it seems a bit more cost effective and, assuming I learn how to position the thing properly, I should be able to limit the number of things that can shoot at it (and those units may quite possibly have more interesting targets to shoot at.)


    One condition on suggestions is that the Harlequins stay. The models were pretty much the only thing that motivated me to play my Eldar (I was planning on selling my army beforehand) so they're pretty much a requirement. Fortunately they're a damn strong unit (which I didn't realize until I read the entry a couple times) so this isn't too heinous of a requirement.

    After writing all of this down I'm thinking the way to do this might be to do the following:

    Bring the Avengers and Scorpions back up to 10 each. Ditch the Pathfinders, as I have plenty of Str6 weapons to deal with pretty much anything except C'Tan and Wraithlords. Add in either the Vyper, or find points for the Waveserpent and use it as a transport for the Avengers (which may never step foot inside of it, and rather hang out with the Guardians, Wraithlord, and Farseer.)

    You play your game, I'll play mine.

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  3. #2
    LO Zealot Ironangel256's Avatar
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    HQ:
    Farseer
    -Stats remarkably akin to those of Eldrad Ulthuan
    =210pts
    Eldrad is cool but at times won't be worth it, watch out.

    Striking Scoprions
    -6x Scorpion
    -1x Exarch w/ Chainsabres, Shadowstrike
    =149pts
    Needs to be 10 strong and the weapons of choice are the biting blade or the claw as you will have a tough time wounding with the chain sabres.

    Fire Dragons
    -6x Dragon
    =96pts
    perfect for their role.

    Harlequins
    -1x Troop Master w/ Power Weapon & Shuriken Pistol
    -1x Shadow Seer
    -1x Death Jester
    -2x Harlequin w/ Fusion Pistol & CCW
    -4x Harlequin w/ Shuriken Pistol & Kiss
    -1x Harlequin w/ Shuriken Pistol & CCW
    =276pts
    Let me first start off by saying that I love the fluff and look of the death jester but he just really does not fit in rules wise. He has one less attack than a normal harlie and in order to fire his weapon you have to forego fleet. Drop the DJ and the fusion pistols, otherwise great setup!


    TROOP:
    Dire Avengers
    -8x Avenger
    -1x Exarch w/ Power Weapon, Shimmer Shield, Defend, Bladestorm
    =165pts
    This is a great tarpit unit to hold up your enemies expensive assualt units until your harlies can charge in to save the day. Ideally should be 10 strong, otherwise good!

    Rangers
    -5x Pathfinder
    =120pts
    Nothing wrong with some pathfinders as long as you are not going all mech.

    Guardian Defenders
    -10x Defender
    -Brightlance Platform
    -Warlock w/ Embolden
    =140pts
    Due to their low BS you do not want to put a single shot weapon with these, even with guide. Chang this out for a scatter laser or shuriken cannon. Also you may want to consider conceal for the warlock due to the fact that most weapons are AP5 or lower.

    FAST ATTACK:
    Warp Spiders
    -9x Spider
    -1x Exarch w/ Extra Death Spinner, Power Blades, Withdraw
    =262pts
    I love me some spiders! Great setup!

    HEAVY SUPPORT:
    Falcon
    -Starcannon
    -Shuriken Catapult
    -Holo Field
    -Spirit Stones
    =195pts
    In it's current encarnation the star cannon is mediocore at best. You will find better results with a shuriken cannon on the turret and one underneath.

    Falcon
    -Scatter Laser
    -Shuriken Catapult
    -Holo Field
    -Spirit Stones
    =185pts
    scatter laser is good on falcons but it may be better to go with the above setup here again. Otherwise these have all of the right defensive upgrades.

    Wraithlord
    -Brightlance
    -Eldar Missile Launcher
    =155pts
    Good ranged setup. I actually prefer mine with BL + scatter laser / shuriken cannon.

    The biggest problem I'm looking at this list, I think, is that I'm running a little light on tankbusting. If necessary I can fire off Guide on both the Wraithlord and the Guardian squad so my Brightlances should both be reasonably mobile -and- reliable, however that's still only two guns (plus the EML.)
    Don't forget that your falcons have pulse lasers for AT as well, you should be fine. you may want to drop the guardians altogether for a serpent with TL BL for the DA for that added punch though.

    The Fire Dragons should pop anything they get into 6", and possibly even 12", of, but they need to get in close before the rest of my army is shot to pieces. Depending on the table and game, I'll deploy them in a Falcon to give them a head start, but the Falcons are mostly there for anti-infantry (and light vehicle) duties and dumping 300 points into a unit than can get popped by a lucky lascannon isn't my idea of prudent. The Falcons and Fire Dragons do provide emergency or mid-game tank busting power, regardless.
    The only real way that the dragons are effective is in the falcon. Slogging dragons are not likely to get in range of any type of armor. Also falcons have a reputation for being nigh unkillable, I wouldn't worry too much about those stray lascannon shots.

    The other issue I want to address, not as a problem so much as a explaination, is the odd counts on the Scorpions and Avengers. I originally started a Ulthwe list, which I then put on hold when I learned a new codex was coming out 'soon' (aparently a year and a half means soon.) Fortunately I didn't go too nuts on collecting Guardians, however I still found myself with 8 Black Defenders and 6 Black Storms. I have enough weapon platform crew models that I an convert some extra models to up my counts to full 10-man squads in each unit (although that brings my list to 2013.) I decided to drop the sizes down to what I already own and have painted, however, in order to introduce some wiggle room for figuring out how to add some more tank busting.

    I do believe the Scorpions need a larger unit, however, or I'm going to have problems with close combat.
    You are right there, at this points level the scorpions will get rolled by a larger squad easily, they really need to be ten to be effective.

    The two possibilities I'm seriously looking at are either adding in a Vyper with a Brightlance, or squeezing in a Waveserpent with a TL Brightlance. I'm leaning towards the Vyper as it seems a bit more cost effective and, assuming I learn how to position the thing properly, I should be able to limit the number of things that can shoot at it (and those units may quite possibly have more interesting targets to shoot at.)
    Forget the vyper, again putting single shot guns on a BS 3 model is a bad idea. I would go with the wave serpent with the TL BL as it will help spread the enemies AT fire even farther between your skimmers, the BL shot is reliable due to being TL, and it allows you to get one of your units where they need to be.

    Bring the Avengers and Scorpions back up to 10 each. Ditch the Pathfinders, as I have plenty of Str6 weapons to deal with pretty much anything except C'Tan and Wraithlords. Add in either the Vyper, or find points for the Waveserpent and use it as a transport for the Avengers (which may never step foot inside of it, and rather hang out with the Guardians, Wraithlord, and Farseer.)
    With the cuts you mentioned you will be able to do one of those two things, not both. Personally I would change eldrad out for a bare bones doom seer or maybe an Autarch with fusion gun, warp pack, mandiblasters, and scorp chainsword to go with the spiders.

    As it stands Eldrad really does not do anything for you. He would sit with your block of troops and....what? There is nothing that really needs guiding(guardians don't count). Doom can be useful anywhere as always, nothing needs fortuning really, mind war works better from a bike, as does eldritch storm. I am telling, if you want to make the above changes, here is the place to find the points.
    IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT!

    I survived LO Chat thanks to: Karmoon, Rabbit, Process, Tossy and Meish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Dole View Post
    HQ:

    Guardian Defenders
    -10x Defender
    -Brightlance Platform
    -Warlock w/ Embolden
    =140pts
    i think you mean storm guardians, but i beleive if you read the codex again, storm guardians cannot have a weapons platform, they can be upgrade to have either 2 fusion guns or 2 flamers. i dont know why IA didnt mention/catch it, however if you just want to call your guardians defenders instead, fine, but if you mean storm guardians you will have to change this 1 way or another.

  5. #4
    LO Zealot Ironangel256's Avatar
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    you actually have me confused sinister... where did you get the idea that he want to use them as stormies? Right in his list it says that they are guardian defenders, thus they have a platform...

    If you could elaborate please...
    IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT!

    I survived LO Chat thanks to: Karmoon, Rabbit, Process, Tossy and Meish.

  6. #5
    Junior Member TearsofIsha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Dole View Post
    HQ:
    Farseer
    -Stats remarkably akin to those of Eldrad Ulthuan
    =210pts
    Lose some of these points, unnecessary for one model and can strengthen your army as a whole

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Dole View Post
    ELITE:
    Striking Scoprions
    -6x Scorpion
    -1x Exarch w/ Chainsabres, Shadowstrike
    =149pts
    I think 8 of these guys seem to suffice especially with an exarch with claw...infiltrate them and strategically place them in an assaultable range from one of your opponents less tough shooty units. The weaker opponent will lose in combat and you will get those points and not have to worry about them targeting your other units or falcons.


    [QUOTE=Bob Dole;948661] Fire Dragons
    -6x Dragon
    =96pts

    Great great great, put them in a falcon and get them close to the action to bust some tanks, you're falcon will be fine as long as you move fast with it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Dole View Post
    Harlequins
    -1x Troop Master w/ Power Weapon & Shuriken Pistol
    -1x Shadow Seer
    -1x Death Jester
    -2x Harlequin w/ Fusion Pistol & CCW
    -4x Harlequin w/ Shuriken Pistol & Kiss
    -1x Harlequin w/ Shuriken Pistol & CCW
    =276pts
    I love harlies I field an 8 man squad, 3 with kisses, 2 with fusion guns, 1 regular, 1 troupe master and a shadowseer and i feel like thats overkill, the shadowseer is great bc it can keep units targting your harlies from being able to see them keeping them somewhat protected from fire until they get close to kill, and they will, big time...run right over cover anddifficult terrain with these bad boys too.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Dole View Post
    TROOP:
    Dire Avengers
    -8x Avenger
    -1x Exarch w/ Power Weapon, Shimmer Shield, Defend, Bladestorm
    =165pts
    the best, but make it ten and i'd choose either defend or bladestorm, decide their role and pick which one is better suited for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Dole View Post
    Rangers
    -5x Pathfinder
    =120pts
    Don't lose the pathfinders, they're tough to kill in cover, they can kill heavily armored units easily bc of thier special rules, and pathfinders avoid difficult terrain, keep them, very strategic unit.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Dole View Post
    Guardian Defenders
    -10x Defender
    -Brightlance Platform
    -Warlock w/ Embolden
    =140pts
    agree, don't take single shot weapon with these guardians, use a multi fire weapon, scatter laser or shuriken cannon, and make it conceal not embolden tohelp them stay alive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Dole View Post
    FAST ATTACK:
    Warp Spiders
    -9x Spider
    -1x Exarch w/ Extra Death Spinner, Power Blades, Withdraw
    =262pts
    a little on the large side but hey they kick ass

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Dole View Post
    HEAVY SUPPORT:
    Falcon
    -Starcannon
    -Shuriken Catapult
    -Holo Field
    -Spirit Stones
    =195pts
    not a big fan of starcannon but not bad, take something less bc you'll be using its pulse laser as its main offensive weapon, get a defensive weapon that you can still fire after moving along iwth the pulse laser.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Dole View Post
    Falcon
    -Scatter Laser
    -Shuriken Catapult
    -Holo Field
    -Spirit Stones
    =185pts
    Perfect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Dole View Post
    Wraithlord
    -Brightlance
    -Eldar Missile Launcher
    =155pts
    Nice choice, BS 4 makes this good, but I like the wraithsword and bright lance setup, gives you an accurate tank buster for two turns until combat comes and then you just murder them rerolling to hit with your wraithsword and maulling anybody with your monstrous strength 10 and toughness 8, but still nice.





    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Dole View Post
    The biggest problem I'm looking at this list, I think, is that I'm running a little light on tankbusting. If necessary I can fire off Guide on both the Wraithlord and the Guardian squad so my Brightlances should both be reasonably mobile -and- reliable, however that's still only two guns (plus the EML.)
    get rid of the bright lance with the guardians



    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Dole View Post
    The Fire Dragons should pop anything they get into 6", and possibly even 12", of, but they need to get in close before the rest of my army is shot to pieces. Depending on the table and game, I'll deploy them in a Falcon to give them a head start, but the Falcons are mostly there for anti-infantry (and light vehicle) duties and dumping 300 points into a unit than can get popped by a lucky lascannon isn't my idea of prudent. The Falcons and Fire Dragons do provide emergency or mid-game tank busting power, regardless.
    Falcon won't get shot down you'll be fine, use this setup properly and your fire dragons will become feared above all.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Dole View Post
    The two possibilities I'm seriously looking at are either adding in a Vyper with a Brightlance, or squeezing in a Waveserpent with a TL Brightlance. I'm leaning towards the Vyper as it seems a bit more cost effective and, assuming I learn how to position the thing properly, I should be able to limit the number of things that can shoot at it (and those units may quite possibly have more interesting targets to shoot at.)
    adding a viper by itself is asking for it to be out of commission soon, squad it up as 2 or 3 with at least 2 bright lances for some real mobile firepower. don't put a brightlance on the wave serpent, it'll get shot down bc that'll only draw more attention to the troop mover, i use tl eldar missle launchers on my wave serpent, i can either krak fire at big targets that need to go in front of my squad im deploying or lay down some frag fire and eliminate a squad at hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Dole View Post
    One condition on suggestions is that the Harlequins stay. The models were pretty much the only thing that motivated me to play my Eldar (I was planning on selling my army beforehand) so they're pretty much a requirement. Fortunately they're a damn strong unit (which I didn't realize until I read the entry a couple times) so this isn't too heinous of a requirement.
    again read above, reduce the size a bit, this is a bit overkill and eats massive points.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Dole View Post
    After writing all of this down I'm thinking the way to do this might be to do the following:

    Bring the Avengers and Scorpions back up to 10 each. Ditch the Pathfinders, as I have plenty of Str6 weapons to deal with pretty much anything except C'Tan and Wraithlords. Add in either the Vyper, or find points for the Waveserpent and use it as a transport for the Avengers (which may never step foot inside of it, and rather hang out with the Guardians, Wraithlord, and Farseer.)
    dire avengers 10, scorpions 8 with exarch, but deploy them strategically and with an intent purpose to achieve. keep pathfinders, reduce size of harlies and maybe 2 warp spiders, DA's don't really need to go in a wave serpent bc they're great from farther than most all other eldar troops.

  7. #6
    Senior Member Bob Dole's Avatar
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    HQ:
    Farseer
    -Stats remarkably akin to those of Eldrad Ulthuan
    =210pts

    Warlocks
    -4x Warlock
    -1x Warlock w/ Embolden
    -1x Warlock w/ Enhance
    =170pts

    ELITE:
    Striking Scoprions
    -9x Scorpion
    -1x Exarch w/ Biting Blade, Shadowstrike
    =197pts

    Fire Dragons
    -6x Dragon
    =96pts

    Harlequins
    -1x Troop Master w/ Power Weapon & Shuriken Pistol
    -1x Shadow Seer
    -1x Death Jester
    -5x Harlequin w/ Shuriken Pistol & Kiss
    =224pts


    TROOP:
    Dire Avengers
    -9x Avenger
    -1x Exarch w/ Power Weapon, Shimmer Shield, Defend, Bladestorm
    =177pts

    Rangers
    -5x Pathfinder
    =120pts


    FAST ATTACK:
    Warp Spiders
    -9x Spider
    -1x Exarch w/ Extra Death Spinner, Power Blades, Withdraw
    =262pts


    HEAVY SUPPORT:
    Falcon
    -Starcannon
    -Shuriken Catapult
    -Holo Field
    -Spirit Stones
    =195pts

    Falcon
    -Scatter Laser
    -Shuriken Catapult
    -Holo Field
    -Spirit Stones
    =185pts

    Wraithlord
    -Brightlance
    -Eldar Missile Launcher
    =155pts


    TOTAL=1991pts

    So, lesse. I listened to some advice and ignored other advice. I beefed the Scoprions and Avengers up to full size, and swapped the Chainsabres for a Biting Blade. I'm using a Warlock model as the exarch (the whole Black Guardian thing) so using the Scoprion's Claw would look fairly odd. A Biting Blade seems entirely reasonable, however, so I went with that. I kept both exarch skills on the Avenger, as I think they go together well and I've heard other people say the same.

    I kept the Starcannon on the first Falcon. I find I'm often facing Sv2 models (a friend of mine plays IW with 6 oblits) so having a model that's packing plenty of AP2 weapons seems like a good idea. I do realize it's just plain not as good as it used to be compared to the alternatives.

    I shrunk the Harlequins down a bit, since I think a couple people said the squad was overkill. I gave everyone a Harlequin's Kiss since dropping the fusion pistols breaks my WYSWYG on that unit anyways. It's pretty easy to remember the proxy though (everyone non-special has a Kiss) so it won't be a problem for my regular opponents. I -did- keep the Jester as I've already started painting the model and did a minor conversion on the gun. Plus I think the cannon goes along with hit and run very nicely, especially if my opponent is clustered.

    I kept Eldrad in there for now. I may be overvaluing his Divination power, but I put a Farseer together with two powers, a spirit stone, and the ant-psycker rune and thought that the cost to go up to Eldrad just seemed really worthwhile. He's definately a potential chop though, and I could see replacing him with a Farseer with Mindwar on a jet bike.

    I added in a Warlock Squad as another close combat unit. It's not quite the cheese factory that it used to be, but the addition of all of those witchblades should help give them a decent damage output. Plus, well, Warlocks (and Farseers) are my favorite models after the Harlequins, so I'm partial to including them if I have the points.

    I'm definately iffy on the efficacy of the above two units.

    I just plain dropped the Guardians. I'm not really sure that I need yet another Shuriken Cannon or Scatter Laser in this list, so I dropped them altogether to give me some extra points.
    Last edited by Bob Dole; June 16th, 2007 at 01:57. Reason: Revised List
    You play your game, I'll play mine.

  8. #7
    Resident Mongoose Mongooseo's Avatar
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    That Harlequin unit is going to run things over and sweeping advance itself into the half-way point between two units.
    Stick the warlocks into a Falcon and make people miserable. If you take a normal farseer, that's my advice as well. I'm a former Ulthwé player, and this has worked for me. Your warlocks need destructor.
    Aside from that, the list looks good.

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    I like it, i usually run with the scorps in a ten man unit, it may be over kill but it seems to keep them combat capable for a long while as i sweep and consolidate. Why do you mention that the warlock unit is not what it used to be? i think its worse really they wound on 2 and retain the armor reroll as long as the farseer is present.

    (quote)As it stands Eldrad really does not do anything for you. He would sit with your block of troops and....what? There is nothing that really needs guiding(guardians don't count). Doom can be useful anywhere as always, nothing needs fortuning really, mind war works better from a bike, as does eldritch storm. I am telling, if you want to make the above changes, here is the place to find the points.

    Just put him in the seer council its very nasty. He can guide the fire dragons, fortune for the warlock unit, and mind war as he moves up. Whats he going to add for these points a single vyper? no thanks ill take the guided dragons or spiders and doomed unit thats being attacked by the harlequin.
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    Last edited by WarpSpider; June 16th, 2007 at 23:09.

  10. #9
    Senior Member $ick's Avatar
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    I think it is nearly there. It is in fact very similar to my current 2000pt list.

    One thing that sticks out is eldrad, I don't think you have enough shooty units to make the most out of him. Also, him and the warlocks are taking up a lot of points which could be better spent on more troops, which you are serverely lacking.

    I would say drop the warlocks for sure, maybe eldrad, and add some more avengers.

  11. #10
    LO Zealot Ironangel256's Avatar
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    I totally agree with $ick. There is really no justification for eldrad in the list. Sure, doom is always useful but none of the other powers really stick out as being "needed". By taking a simple doom seer with a singing spear you could free up almost 130 points.
    IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT!

    I survived LO Chat thanks to: Karmoon, Rabbit, Process, Tossy and Meish.

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