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I've spent some time reviewing the choices for flying troops available to DE players and thinking about why they are so rarely used (admittedly, Reavers do get some use) and generally not very effective. I've come up with some suggested revisions that might make them see some more time on the table.
I've used selections from the Eldar list as a measuring stick. The DE revisions are better in some ways, worse in others. I tried to keep in mind the concept of speed, mobility and firepower being more important than resilience. To that end, you'll probably notice that these suggestions tend to have weaker armor saves, but better manueverability and firepower than their Eldar counterparts. They may seem to have a lot of special abilities and serious amounts of firepower and mobility for their point counts, but please bear in mind that they are still have poor toughness and armor, and thus tend to die pretty easily.
I'd like to hear discussion and further suggestions.
WS: 4 BS: 4 S: 3 T: 3 W: 1 I: 5 A: 1 Ld: 8 Sv:5+
May take a Sybarite, who has +1 attack, +1 leadership and access to armory.
Special Rules: Fleet of Wing, Masters of the Skies, Hasty Retreat.
Masters of the Skies: Never require worse than 4+ to hit a vehicle in assaults.
Hasty Retreat: Scourges may move 6" in the assault phase.
May take Plasma Grenades and/or Haywire Grenades.
Scourge Wings: Models move as if equipped with jump packs and may deep strike in missions that allow it.
Scourge Cannons (Range: 18" S:6 AP:6 Assault 2).
Scourges may select up to 4 special weapons per squad, from the following choices:
+10pts: Shredder (Weapon update: Range: Flamer Template S: 4 AP: 3 Assault 1)
+10pts: Splinter Cannon
+12pts: Atomizer (Range: 18" S: 7 AP: 2 Assault 1 or Range: 12" S: 4 AP: 3 Assault 3)
Hellions: 28 pts
WS: 4 BS: 4 S: 3(4) T: 3 W: 1 I: 6 A: 2(3) Ld: 8 Sv: 6+/4++
May take Succubus, who has +1 attack, +1 leadership and access to armory.
Special Rules: Combat Drugs, Fleet of Wing, Expert Flyers, Hit and Run, Jink Save.
May take Plasma Grenades and/or Haywire Grenades.
Hellion Skyboards: Grants 4+ invulnerable Jink Save vs all attacks and +1 attack due to all the spikes and blades. Models move as if equipped with jump packs and may deep strike in missions that allow it. Has built-in Skyboard Cannon. (Range: 12" S: 3 AP:4 Assault 2) Skyboard riders cannot benefit from a Tormentor Helm.
Hellglaive: Two-handed weapon, grants +1 S and re-rolls all failed to wound rolls.
Reaver Jet Bikes: 24 pts
WS: 4 BS: 4 S: 3 T: 3(4) W: 1 I: 5 A: 1(2) Ld: 8 Sv: 4+
May take Sybarite, who has +1 attack, +1 leadership and access to armory.
Special Rules: Expert Riders, Hit and Run, Crazed.
Crazed: Unlike other bikers, DE bikers are able to turbo-boost through difficult terrain. They must take a difficult terrain roll with either a 1 or a 2 resulting in the rider taking a wound.
May take Plasma Grenades and/or Haywire Grenades.
(Dark) Eldar Jetbike: Fitted with twin-linked Splinter Carbine, increases riders toughness and attacks by +1 and gives an armor save of 4+. May turbo-boost and move in the assault phase.
Splinter Carbine: Range: 18" S:3 AP:5 Assault 2
Reavers may select up to 2 special weapons per squad, from the following choices:
+10pts: Splinter Cannon
I do like your suggestions but maybe overpowered.
here is my 3 little fixes to DE that make them a very good army choice compared to recent updated codex's.
Scourges (although i did like your suggestions) get a 10 point mark down on weapons.
SC's-10 Lances-15, i would also suggest 14 points a man.
Mandrakes can take a sergeant.
Hellions receive an assault 2 hellgrave (did i spell that right?) or rapid fire on the same turn they charge
Well actually 4, the rules get revised for DE so people can make proper sense of them.
Still though i did like your suggestions.
Last edited by dizzie; July 22nd, 2007 at 17:00.
If you're always worried about crushing the ants beneath you...you won't be able to walk.
I like the ideas but they are indeed overpowered. Scourges arent warp spiders so they will never get Str6 weapons, and similarly reaver jetbikes will never be that powerful and cheaper at the same time.
-Atomizer for scourges should be at least 20 points for what it does.
-There should be no ability to hit vehicles for the scourges, it destroys the fluff completely since these arent assault marines and they dont excel in CC.
-I actualy realy liek the hellion entry, they are good for what they would be doing but at the same time the price mtches their strength, yet I still do think that they should be cheaper than jetbikes since they are obviously less significant. Also, loose the tormentor helm since it is supposed to be a rare tool only used by the elite incubi, not any dark eldar that wants it. If it comes to giving the hellion 1 more attack, than so be it.
-Jetbikes, need to take a wound on a 1, not 1 and 2 since that would make them extremely "nonexpert" since every one of three will be running into a tree and dying when ziping through dif terrain. With all other upgrades in account, I would make them 26-28 points a piece since their combat potential is greatly increased. Now even though I realy like your ideas, you are making them very range oriented and I think it waould be wiser to have them get CC upgrades mostly. So I would also consider making an entry for a CC reaver jetbike and than compare the two, sine we arent craftworld eldar and we do have different focuses.
Last edited by WraithGuardian; July 22nd, 2007 at 16:23.
- You'll get no arguments from me about point increases. I intended these entries as a starting point.
-I think you misread my Hellion entry. They don't have a Tormentor Helm and do have an extra attack on their profile, in addition to another, additional attack from the Skyboard; as you said they should. I didn't think that it would be balanced for a Hellion Succubus to be able to take a Tormentor Helm when their skyboard already has a weapon built into it that works pretty much the same way. My goal with the Hellion entry was to make a swift, flying unit of elite wyches that were capable of a hard hitting assault.
-I see your point with the Scourges re: Masters of the Skies. They're not geared for assault, and that ability could easily be removed. I added that in at the last moment because I was thinking about our difficulties with killing Monoliths. It was also a pretty blatant rip-off fron the Eldar Swooping Hawks, who are also not geared for assault. As far as the Atomizer (aka Dissie Light); I wouldn't be averse to a points increase, as long as we get the weapon. I would like for the Scourges to have the Hasty Retreat ability, though. That extra bit of mobility increases their survivability significantly. They have a 5+ armor save, toughness 3 and all of their weapons are relatively short range. This means that no matter what kind of shooty goodness we give them, they're going to remain bolter fodder, like they are now, if we don't give them some way of escaping after they shoot. I designed the Scourge Cannon to be effective against light vehicles and infantry. As Scourges are Heavy Support, it's my belief that they should be carrying a basic weapon that is a little harder hitting than a Splinter Rifle.
-The RJBs would take a wound on 1 (with a reroll for skilled riders) when passing normally through difficult terrain. They would only take a wound on 1 or 2 (with a reroll) when turbo-boosting through difficult terrain, something no other bikers can do. My goal with the RJBs was to make them a little more shooty; the new, improved Hellions already have the assault covered. That said, we could always make any attacks on the charge made by RJBs power-weapon attacks. The way I figure it, anything moving at 200kmph with all those blades is bound to cut right through most armor. However, this would make them come to resemble the Shining Spears and I'm not sure how desirable that is.
Thanks for your feedback!!
IMO just bump scourges to fast attack and give them access to the special weapons (and probably the splinter cannon too).
By doing this you can actually make your job easier.
Hellions get a more dedicated CC (with a reworking of the hellglaive).
Reavers are left as they are - they are the generalist FA choice.
That way you get 1 CC specialist, 1 shooting specialist and 1 generalist.
So to fix 3 entire units you only need to rewrite the helglaive.
Those scourges wouldn't be overpowered, they need large buffs anyway and units in new codices do end up powerful. I'm sure if half the existing units in the game were being written now and posted here you'd be saying they were overpowered too, but since they're written by GW there is the assumption that they are balanced and play tested. But anyway, with scourges, I wouldn't like to see them moved to the fast attack slot at all, I think it would ruin the uniqueness of the unit, being the only jump pack-heavy weapon unit in the game. Instead, I think they should work a rule into there that they can move and shoot heavy weapons, even if it is at a restricted level, say, half range for example, or perhaps half range and 1 AP value worse or something of the sort. I don't like the JSJ nature that they would get from this so I instead propose that they are allowed a 12" jump pack move in the assault phase, but only if they didn't move in the movement phase at all. So they can stand still, shoot weapons at full range and then jump back, or instead, move, shoot heavy weapons at half range and regular weapons at full range and have no jump move. I think this balances the unit, and instead of never getting shot at normally (like tau suits for example) they only get shot at half the time, which does semi-fix their survivability to points cost ratio problem.
I really don't like seeing reavers clumped into the "bad units" pile, since they are a *great* unit, and I don't think they need improving at all, in any way. I don't even understand why or how anyone could think they are a bad unit. I mean, there are some benefits I'd like, but they really don't need them at all and are fine as they are. Mandrakes on the other hand could use some buffing even though they are a reasonably viable unit for someone who knows what he's doing with them.
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Thing is, they have nothing to justify move and shoot heavy weapons.
Terminators get it because well, they are tanks on legs. Crisis suits get it because of their advanced stabilisers, scourge are jsut guys with wings holding a darklance.
While true it is unique being the only jump pack heavy support, but it just doesn't work overall.
Their points cost per model is decent but the cost of the weapons is not.
However this still doesn't deal with the move and fire heavy weapons (well they only get one).
Unless...they were to get a sort of supercharged blaster? think a multi melta but because DE can make recoil-less weapons (ref: splinter cannon) they could combine the two technologies.
Super charged blaser (someone make up a decent name) 24" S8 AP2 assault 1, lance.
That does sound a bit too powerful, so maybe an 18" range would be better.
Lose the option to take darklances but keep the splinter cannons.
Say 10 points for the cannon and 15 for the blaster thingy (i'd even go as far as 20 points).
Hellions are not that bad as they are, or so I thought myself about the models, they gain combat drugs which warrior units don't have, they gain Hellglaives, Hellion Skyboards (Which assures them a 12" movement, Invunerable save of a +5 and +1 to your armor save if you move with them in the previous turn.) Although I believe some effort does have to made to consider making the points cost cheaper with the Squad or simply making them more effective as a Unit, the only thing that would strike in my mind to make this squad more effective in my eyes would be give the Hellions Assault rifles instead which makes them still able to go into combat, personally I would prefer just reducing the price cost of the model to something minor like 14 points? 16 points? About double the price of a standard warrior. Minor reduction but does make a difference if you field a certain amount.
Above all, one thing I believe would make Hellions more of an interest to 40k Dark Eldar Players is making it possible to use them as a troops choice, perfect for those who wish to really get some speed going into their armies. As for Reavers, I believe their is no requirement into the Unit, perhaps cleaning up the rule on "Eldar" Jetbikes to finally say "No" or "Yes" to the 6" movement in the Assault phase. Other than that, I'm more then comfortable at the current moment with the squad. Scourges in my opinion are not bad but at the current moment they do not have much as far as Tank killing is concerned, Heavy Weapons + Jump packs does not work well at all, either you are using the 12" movement or you are using the heavy weapons but not both which means you are losing points value for either one or the other when fielding the Scourges in such a way. Giving us Blasters in exchange for Dark Lances would be ideal.
But 1 Squad of Scourges with 4 Splinter Cannons can lay waste to Tyranids, Orks and Imperial Guardsmen and even certain Eldar troops which isn't bad.
for my money I would love to see the Scourge wings made into wargear along with the skyboard and the reaver and keep them as a heavy support choice. This would give 3 options from the wargear list for extra movement for characters. And give the Scourge's the ability to remove their wings for a points decrease, so imagine if you will a cheaper 5 model scourge squad with 4 dark lances - lets call it "Sniper Supreme" or again the usual splinter cannon option with or without wings and give the Sybarite something useful like a targetting array to boost their ballistic skills.
Who else would like to see the wings as wargear?
In a controversy the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves.
Yeah, problem with that is they will then try and take the ability to be able to make the Sybarite leader carry a WWP portal, the same way they prevented the Hellion Skyboard and the Reaver Jetbike from doing so, which infact is perhaps another mistake or an error of judgment on GWS behalf but yet a reasonable advantage for the Dark Eldar to deploy a WWP more effectively. I see little value in having wings as an upgrade myself, what would the difference between a Hellion Skyboard and Wings? They both count as jump packs? Well, maybe a good thing to add onto the model but that is about it =/?
And a targeting array making the Dark Eldar able to fire at a +2! That would be rather insane and over power, especially considering you could have three squads of that merciless slaughter!