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I've been playing all sorts of games against pretty much every race in the 40k universe and keep trying these boys. As yet I've been totally unimpressed for what they do for their cost. If someone can suggest a reason (beyond fluff) to play them instead of Avengers I'd appreciate it. Storm Squads (with their warlock and special weapons) I'm quite fond of against pretty much anything.
The problem I have with them isn't that they're a bad choice. They're simply in an army list that has some of the best troop choices in the game!
I'm going to list a couple of things that to my mind ensures that whatever they can do something else does better given cost but; since today I've already considered the Fire Prism a BS3 tank, if I post something ridiculous let me know!
1) They seem reasonably cheap but with a minimum squad size of 10 they quickly catch up to a squad of Avengers or even rangers/pathfinders. True you get more, but what use is a large squad if it doesn't do anything? I'm not going to take something that acts as a fire screen when a half decent general simply ignores them. The LD test to target other units if they're closer is rarely an impediment and something that moderately competent deployment can negate.
2) The move and fire heavy weapon is quite nice, but the Eldar army list has some insanely good heavy weapon options so I've not found it worth using them. Against MEQ I'd take Reapers. For weight of fire I'd take Vypers, Jetbikes or Walkers. The single shot, or even dual shot weapons they can take suffer from a BS3 making them expensive for in-game expectations.
3) The shuriken catapult is a beast of a gun, all apart from the 12" range. The ability for almost anything to charge next turn or rapid fire them to pieces, combined with their fragility, doesn't fill me with confidence. In contrast we have the Dire Avengers, who get an 18" range, better BS, a save that works against basic troop weapons, and the ability to use Exarch warrior powers. I struggle to think of a situation where that is not more useful!
As I've not found a situation where Dire Avengers are not simply better than the defender squad, I find that they tend to get left out of the games.
Maybe this should be more a topic about how utterly incredible Dire Avengers can be considering they're a 12 point troops choice?
That is pretty much the overall view of guardians, most think they are pretty worthless compared to DA, or any foundation troop choice for that matter. Welcome the DA, bye bye to guardians. the only guardians that are in my army are the ones manning my skimmers.
Well, you pretty well summed up why nobody takes 'em any more.
They USED to be the anchor point of every eldar army for one reason: Starcannons had 3 shots. It was WORTH taking a mid-large squad of them, throwing a SC in there and just light up marines(or even guide them) even unpredictably cross-eyed in shooting, 3 shots meant one was probably going to hit a turn(maybe 2) NOW, aside from scatter lasers there just isn't anything that can balance out thier poor shooting, and even then there are so many better options for taking the Scatter lasers on, that is just not worth it either.
I think they got nerfed indirectly. Which, fluff wise makes sense in a way. They are supposed to be the last line of defense of the eldar people, civilians who volunteered/pressed to fight they aren't tooo good, there are just many of them.
Though I find it sort of amusing that BEFORE in the previous codex, guardians were the BACKBONE of the Eldar army, with Aspect warriors being the minority few... funny how times change.
W/D/L Eleventy trillion billion/NONE/ NONE - I am STILL rulezor!
WINDMILLS DO NOT WORK THAT WAY!
Thats what i thought, but all of the GW people always say 'buy the guardians, because you simply cant have an eldar army without them'. I really do not get what the bloody hell they're saying. only half of their shots hit, and they shoot about the length of how far Carlton players can kick a footy, now theyre 'much improved' with the fact that a heavy weapon comes in the box, lets see how long it takes for a scatter laser to earn back 150 points. But i guess i might as well buy one for the fluff, and it might catch some ******* idiot off guard 1 day. sigh
But look on the bright side. They got rid of craftworld rules, and everyone can play any combination of stuff, its just "fluffier" to take certain choices over others. Take Ulthwe, they have a fluff of having the largest guardian force.... yeah.
W/D/L Eleventy trillion billion/NONE/ NONE - I am STILL rulezor!
WINDMILLS DO NOT WORK THAT WAY!
Here's my thoughts on them,
I don’t know what it is but almost all the veterans on the 40k online forums use guardians, both stormers and defenders, to great success. The most common set up seams to be 15 with a warlock and a missile launcher. It really is strange how hear at LO there is a unified hate of them.
I think they are most effective when an Avatar is around as they become fearless. Also, a lot of the people on 40k online who make use of guardians also make use of the Eldrad Avatar combo. It's weird how people are seemingly influenced by the different online communities.
Myself, I run two squads of 10 with no warlock. They are backed up by two squads of avengers, a unit of harlequins, a wraithlord and eldrad. I suppose the wraithlord could easily be swapped with an Avatar...
I find that they do really well against CC troops as long as you can judge your ranges properly. They also do well when used with harlequins or spears, as they can shoot at the left overs after the harlequins/spears hit and run. Alternatively they work great as a tar pit to hold up big nasties until your avatar can arrive. I also think that if your using eldrad you should really include some guardians although of course you don't have to anymore.
As with everything in the Eldar army, don't use them alone, they are not tactical marines and will never win battles on their own. Make sure you back them up with something, they have a great gun and a stupid amount of fire power for what they cost. Don't overlook them.
How many times do I have to say everything in the eldar codex depends on your list. :cry:
You are all seeing them to simply in a weaker dire avenger unit. Say your army consists of:
or something to that effect. Dire Avengers will simply add yet another elite unit to an already elitist army.
10 guardians /w shuriken cannon is half the cost of your average avenger squad.
so in our above army we want to screen our harlequins to stop our enemies move up and rapid-fire them. Leave the guardians 6" between the harlies and the enemy and it's highly unlikely your enemy will be able to move within shadowseer range.
Say they are about to charge your guys with assault troops, leave guardians in the way and you are guaranteed the charge.
Say you need to protect your defensive eldar army, spread out 20 guardians + conceal warlock in front of your army and the enemy must go through them 1st. Those damn orks or tyranids must kill 20 guardians in cc and by then you have either counter-charged or fallen back.
Say you need to stay behind and hold an objective, your own table quarter maybe. Admittedly pathfinders can do this but guardians will still do it a hell of a lot better than dire avengers.
In all of the above cases using dire avengers will result in you wasting points. Whilst guardians have been unable to screen from shooting since 4th ed came out you can still block movement with them. You are paying 85 odd points for a wall wherever you want. We can't do that with any other unit, including the dire avenger tarpit.
Of course they can shoot the guardians but then they're wasting shots again, taking out conscripts, and with conceal or regular cover you can survive.
I am no expert in guardians as I play mech eldar and I'm sure there a million more uses for them rather than just taking whatever does the most sheer damage.
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I use them for meat shields. distractions in battle. Including oe with a bright lance is always a good thing against the two t's. Tanks and terminators(and obliteritors to boot)
plus the 38 shots from the other guardians at the squad. Well they work for me anyways.
First off, you can't trust GW to tell you how effective a unit is, they are both delusional and greedy (I'm reminded of Gav's reasoning in 3rd that the catapult had a 12" range, but with just 1 round of firing a large unit could demolish a 10 man khorne berserker unit. Which is obvioulsy false, statistically it would cause like 3 casualties at most...).
People are forgetting the main reason people took them in 3rd edition...they could screen things! A unit of 12+ guardians with conceal was an excellent way to make sure your then 4+ save dark reaper unit didn't get mown down by enemy heavy bolters and such, or a cover for your aspect warriors/wraithguard to advance behind.
Beyond the starcannon, guardians were *never* useful as more than cannon fodder. Most eldar players hated them for that reason, since it was so out of keeping with the fluff, but alas rangers and dire avengers both werent worth it back then, so unless you played a craftworld you were stuck with them.
The one thing I will say in the guardians defense, is that as a foot slogging advancing infantry unit, they have a heavy weapon over dire avengers, and with a warlock get a 5+ cover save which is superior to a 4+ regular against most heavy weapons.
While I used black guardians under the old codex, I did use them properly where possible. Pushing forward with fortune and conceal made for an incredibly tough battle line that then unleashed 20-30 shots on the enemy (these days guide would be a good idea). Players really hated it when their ordnance weapons would cause 9 wounds but only kill 2 :w00t:.
They would push forward with another large unit of guardians to really hit the enemy hard, and possibly assault the survivors (since there wasn't going to be many, and charging is better than being charged).
It needs to be backed up with a beefy combat unit, which harlequins would probably be ideal for.
I stopped using them since they no longer worked with my overall strategy under the new codex. I had so many tanks and transports that they were completely out of place. They and the rangers were replaced with jetbikes and mounted dire avengers.
Having an army and not owning a rulebook is like owning a car with no steering wheel.Originally Posted by amishcellphone