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Are Piranhas Competitive?

2K views 32 replies 13 participants last post by  LittleBlueMan 
#1 ·
-Mech Tau-So I have been playtesting some piranhas in my 2k list (3 of them). They are basically 75 point fusion blasters. Now granted they are very well working fusion blasters. So 3 piranhas take up 225 points, assuming they all have fusion blasters and tageting arrays. Now also assuming that all the heavy slots are taken up, as they would be in any competitive list, would the 225 points be better put into other units?
You could get

FoF at about 215
About 4 more crisis suits
An HQ with 100 or so more to spare
Pathfinder team-this will have a real large point range, but a fairly strong one could be gained with 225 points
A very large Kroot unit
This is just to name a few

Or are the piranha the best choice? Do my fellow Cadre commanders think they can pull their own? Or are the destined for a life on the shelf? Most importantly, why do you use them? or why don't you use them?
 
#2 ·
Ive played against a lot of tau opponents what i have noticed that when they play against my necrons they seem to be no threat. But i dont know how effective they are against other armies. But i remeber playing a cleanse mission once against a tau player and he used the pirhanas to contest a table quarter which made the game a draw in Victory points so i think they have the possibility to be very effecitive.
 
#3 ·
THey are ok i suppose. A bit fragile for how close they have to be. Some player swear by them others avoid them like the plague. Ive personally only used them once and they did decent. And on what unit you could replace them with. Well im a firm beleiver that you can never have enough markerlights so if you do drop them Pathfinders are my vote.
 
#10 ·
Actually, you would have demolished me far faster if you hadn't have used the Piranhas, but instead other units. :) As it is, your Piranhas did very little except to get you more Victory Points by capturing the objective (which is, of course, a competitive way to use them) while the rest of your army (most notably, the six Crisis Suits and two Hammerheads) did the actual damage. It also didn't help that I don't have enough tabletop experience to really know things such as terrain and the likes...

Overall, I'd say that Piranhas can be useful, but not in the blunt force way that Hammerheads or Crisis Suits are. They are far better at speedily taking objectives, contesting table quarters, hunting tanks such as Basilisks, etc. than they are at actually 'making their points back.' If used properly, and in a Mech style list (in my opinion), they can have their uses. For example... I designed an 1850 list with 4 Warfish, 3 Hammerheads, and 2 Piranhas. I think the Piranhas will most probably fly under the radar for the most part, while the enemy focuses on the much more threatening Hammerheads and Warfish.

For the record, however, I don't want to see people repeating the same points over and over and over. It gets old, and we've had far too many Piranha threads to warrant doing it all over again. :) Thanks.
 
#6 ·
Loaded with a Seeker or two, then zoomed up the side of a battlefield, they can launch side-armour attacks in response to Markerlight hits on vehicles. Rather effective against Russ tanks.

Good for last turn table quarter grabbing, objective taking etc. Upgraded with Decoys and Target Array they can do some damage and survive reasonably well. Used in numbers, they can unload a "free" Drone Squadron as well.

I use them either in big squads or in units of 2. Used singly, they do tend to die quickly! Here is the LO thread about Piranhas. http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99622&highlight=Piranha+Tactica

and one from Advanced Tau Tactica: http://advancedtautactica.com/cms_view_article.php?aid=12

just for comparison.

E.
 
#7 ·
I use piranahs sometimes (mostly when playing Guard to try and take down the rear armour of that annoying Bassie that will be sat behind some building or hill!!

Sometimes they work sometimes they don't.

if you wanted you could go the forgeworld route and try the TX-42 piranahs.

Twin linked fusion blasters and Target array as standard.

3 of 'em would set you back an extra 25 points.

Might be worth a play test.
 
#8 ·
Though I have never used Pirhanas, I have heard of their myriad of combat roles.

Free Drone pair. Gun drones cost XX points, and you get two of them included with a pirhana. Get 9 Pirhanas and you will have 9 two-disc drone units flying about the field, drawing target priority and harassing your opponents, forcing the occasional pinning here and there.

Mobile Fusion Blaster. You know what it is, and it does its job well. Problem is, it tends not to survive the following turn.

Seeker Missle Launcher. As per the Vehicle Wargear, you can equip your pirhanas with two seeker missles and shove them up the board edge. Mark a tank with a unit in your main battle force, whom the tank will most likely be facing, and launch the pirhana's seeker missle to gain a side or rear-armour shot.

Objective holder. A vehicle that is not immobilized counts as a scoring unit. Pirhanas, being able to move 24" in one phase, can hide in the shadows intact and quickly move in for the last-turn objective steal.

Oh, and don't give them burst cannons. We have enough S5 guns as it is.
 
#9 ·
Free Drone pair. Gun drones cost XX points, and you get two of them included with a pirhana. Get 9 Pirhanas and you will have 9 two-disc drone units flying about the field, drawing target priority and harassing your opponents, forcing the occasional pinning here and there.
No you will not have 9 separate units, when a squadron of Piranhas drop drones then all the drones in the squadron have to be dropped at the same time they then form a drone squadron.

It is therefore possible to have a 10 man drone squadron if the max unit size of 5 is taken.

So if you had three piranha squadrons (each 3 strong) then you would have 3 6 man drone squads (much more useful).

These drone units are however non scoring.
 
#12 ·
I often use the one I play with as a free 2 gundrones, and a guaranteed contested/controlledo objective. That is to say: I deploy my drones and use them as normal. I keep my pirahna behind a tree or behind juicier targets (hammerhead) and on the last turn (I let my opponent go first) I boost it 24" to grab something.
 
#13 ·
What do you mean you let him go 1st, depending on scenario your supposed to roll for who gets 1st turn, yeah you could win the roll and elect to go second but if the opponent wins he can make you go first (often an advantage), if your opponent is letting you take objectives because your getting the last turn all the time, then they need to re-think how they are playing.
 
#16 ·
You can still claim objectives in your turn 6 even if you go first. Then your Piranha only has to whether 1 turn of fire and that shouldn't be a big deal by turn 6 if you've been doing your job and properly removing enemy heavy weapons.

Also I have recently come to realize that the free Gun Drones on Piranha are worth more than even normal gun Drone squadrons and are reason enough to take Piranha in and of themselves.

First of all they don't take up an FOC slot. Which is important because you could potentially have so many extra units on the board for fire dilution.

Secondly they can be delivered long distances by the Piranha either 12" or 24". Thats handy when you really need to get some extra firepower to a hotspot but then need your fusion guns elsewhere.

Third they can open top assault 20". This has saved my units countless times from CC and/or tied up many many heavy weapon squads.

Fourth and finally and most important aspect is they are worth no VP's. This makes them the ultimate roadblack/harrasser unit since they are completely expendable(the way drones should be). No other unit can be thrown at the enemy with such abandon as free drones since everything else will give up VP's.

The fact that they are I4 and probably the best CC unit the Tau have(yeah I know about the Kroot but they get no armor save :p) means they are ideally suited to the role. Toss in their ability to pin and use their assault weapons as well and things get even better in the role of sacrificial roadblock. At this point JSJ is just a bonus for moving them into the face of the enemy sooner.

And what does a regular drone squad get that they don't? The option to deep strike, and the status of a scoring unit. Now deep striking is not always reliable for many reasons. First the rules for the scenario have to allow it. Second it requires a successful reserve roll. And finally they can scatter onto enemy units, immpassable terrain, or off the table and they are dead. As far as scoring status goes, it's not like you are actually spending points on non scoring units, just geting free non scoring units in addition to the ultimate scoring unit...the Piranha.

So see Piranha drones are really worth more than their standard FOC cousins since they have so many usefull and unique advantages. Factor in this fact when deciding how much a Piranha is really costing you and what you really get for your points. BTW don't spend 5 points on decoy launchers they rarely save the Piranha and just add cost that could be spent better elswhere. Now your Piranhas become even cheaper at just 70 points.

Now before someone points out that the drones on Devilfish are free too, I'd like to point out a few things about DFish.

First they are dedicated and non scoring. Also they are 85 points bare minimum upgrades. And last but not least, their drones max out at squad size 2 and can't open top assault, nor be delivered 24". Thus they do not make as effective roadblocks for all those reasons as they will usually not hold out even 1 round of combat.

Piranha drones on the other hand can have a squad size up to 10 but even a squad of 4 drones from 2 Piranhas makes a much more effective CC speedbump.

So yes Piranhas are competitive and not jsut for their effecive fusion guns.
 
#17 ·
Undeniably the drones are a bonus, however they are not a reason for taking over FA drone squads, the drone squad does have advantages in that they start of at a reasonable squad size (to get an equiv drone squad from Piranhas would mean taking 4 Piranhas at 280pts min).

Also while they can indeed stall a unit in CC the 4 man squad will more often than not be massacred or run down just as easily as a 2 man DF drone unit.

Also it has to be remembered that you cannot do anything if you move 24" and funnily enough I was witness to a recent game where a drone assault from a squad of two piranhas, hit an assault squad who promptly killed 2 of the drones, the drones lost the CC and passed their fall back test and fell back 3D6, the assault squad consolidated and then promptly moved 12" and downed one of the Piranhas because they had LOS to the side armour. To drop of those drones means putting your Piranhas within 8" of enemy squads, is that advisable when we all know how fragile Piranhas are and relying on a 4 man drone squad to hold units in combat is risky.

You mentioned and dismissed the DF free drones, well sorry but they are immensely useful but in different ways, they are a great addition to the FOF (forcing TP tests and providing a buffer to both movement and assault), and like the Piranha drones they are free, however as most lists will take DF as standard your not really having to find 70pts to pay for them most will be taking them anyway (most players will take a DF with FW's).

Piranhas on the other hand are not a compulsory choice like a unit of FW's so to obtain a decent sized drone squad (to get the drone squad of 4) will mean paying 280pts on top of the FW squad.

Even if you do not take the DF and minimum FW's your still having to find 60 + 70pts so the DF is actually not a bad investment when you look at it that way.

I can take a minimum FW squad and DF for 60 + 85 pts and get two drones exactly the same as the Piranaha, only my FW team is safer.

One of the main things that attracted me to the Piranha when the codex was released was the idea of a free 10 man drone squad (in fact I think I was the 1st to point it out on this forum) and I initially thought the Piranha was going to be a competitive unit, however apart from the hold back and claim objectives use, I really struggle to see why they are worth taking, any good player will know how to work it to get LOS to that vulnerable armour and will not fall for the old 'oh that squadron of Piranhas is getting really close I must panic' tactic.

Once you realise how vulnerable that side and rear armour is and how the fact they are open topped and the distribution of hits rules makes them incredibly easy to pressure and counter , once you realise any weapon can take them down (over STR4 and not just heavy weapons) then you realise that its very easy to gain LOS and you do not have to use your heavy weapons to kill them (use them to take down the HH).

This also applies to your point about last turn, it does not matter if all the heavy weapons have gone, other weapons above and including STR4 will take down Piranhas making it quite hard to keep them hidden from faster units with STR4 weaponry.

Plenty of STR4 shots on side armour will force stunned results at the very minimum which results in destroyed Piranhas or a squadron going nowhere.

Can Piranhas be used successfully, well yeah of course any unit can be, are they competitive, no I really do not think they are, at least not consistently competitive, if an opponent has any idea of their weaknesses they can be countered to easily.

For casual gaming or against a limited range of opponents (allowing tailoring and familiarity of opponent and tactics) then yeah they can be used well enough, but as part of a truly competitive list, (I am talking against club and tournie level opponents) then emphatically no, they are not competitive, you would be better using the points on things like XV8's, Hammerheads, Stealths and if you want effective CC Kroot and hounds despite what Israfel said Kroot and hounds are frighteningly effective CC squads and a damn sight better than any 4 man drone squad and with infiltrate can be in CC just as fast (if not faster) and the lack of a save is more than made up with by INT5 hounds and shed loads of STR4 attacks.
 
#20 ·
Let's have less "I win so much, my ego is HUGE!" posts, and more "hey look, new, interesting content" posts. The two of you are continuing a trend that you have set since the first Piranha thread and have thus continued in every single Piranha thread that has cropped up.

If you don't have something NEW to post, then please just don't post. This topic has been covered so many times, especially by the two of you (Riki and Israfel) that I'm surprised you guys even deem it necessary to post in yet another one.

Again - if you have something new, interesting, and NOT egotistical to post about Piranhas, feel free. Please do a search of all of the other Piranha threads before you do so, though, just to make sure your point hasn't been covered twenty times already, as many (most) of the points in this thread have been.

Thanks. :)



 
#21 ·
I think the correct answer is this: They can be.

One of my favorite tactics is taking the guns from my two devlifish (after FoF, if they survive) and running them with the droens from the pirahna. It makes a 6 drone strong squad that can not be wiped out by a single enemy. So if an assault squad kills the front two, they will just consolidate into the next two, etc. Also, 6 drones is a pretty decent shooting squad.
 
#25 ·
I hope your not saying you make a drone squad from the DF and Piranhas in the same way a squad is created when a pirahna squad drops all its drones, if you are then thats illegal.
The only way you can get the free drone squadron is by taking a piranha squadron.
Devilfish drones form 2 man squads, so if you dropped the 2 DF drones and a single Piranhas drones you would have 3 separate 2 man drone squads.

Israfel, I am not going to go into detail about your reply, just a few answers.

(1) The point about the 4 man drone squad being as easy to kill as a two man was obviously just reffering to the fact that they would be as unlikely to survive a round of CC as a two man squad, not that a 2 man squad is as effective.

(2) The point about the game situation I witnessed was that to send the drones into an assault means you have to purposefully send your Piranhas into a zone which will be very dangerous to the Piranha and your relying on the drones surviving. The player I witnessed is a decent player and he was trying to stop the assault squad from getting to his Broadsides, he lost a Piranha to bolter pistol fire.
I know it takes a bit of luck but it happened. My point was you have to be very careful with Pirahnas as any weapon over STR4 can and do take them down.

Nemesis, I understand your request and will try to restrict my replies to things I have not said before, the poitns above are just for clarification.
 
#22 ·
I prefer my enemies not consolidating into another unit of mine, because I want to shoot at them.

As far as new content goes, that's about it for me.

Piranhas can be used in a list with a decent battlesuit backbone and be made to look effective.

Same with fire warriors on foot.

Same with many units.

Tau battlesuits are what win us games, not our hammerheads or devilfish, or, ever, piranhas.
 
#26 ·
To answer point 2 I usually don't run them forward actually they lurk around my firebase ready to spring some drones and skimmer walls if need be and picking off targets of opportunity like multiwound models or vehicles that get too close.

The only time I run them forward aggressively is when I need to kill a bassie/whirlwind that my other guns can't see. Or if midfiled has good cover they can move forward and help Kroot/stealth hold the middle.

But yeah usually I am carefull with them and the hold back in the rear as a nice backup/reserve that is fast enough to get the job done.

Anyway no worries LN.

BTW are the smilies changing like 3 times a day or am I seeing things?
 
#27 ·
To answer point 2 I usually don't run them forward actually they lurk around my firebase ready to spring some drones and skimmer walls if need be and picking off targets of opportunity like multiwound models or vehicles that get too close.

The only time I run them forward aggressively is when I need to kill a bassie/whirlwind that my other guns can't see. Or if midfiled has good cover they can move forward and help Kroot/stealth hold the middle

But yeah usually I am carefull with them and the hold back in the rear as a nice backup/reserve that is fast enough to get the job done..
Well they were not actually run forward in the sense that they were sent up the field into the opponents lines, they were sent forward to intercept an assault squad that was getting very close.
The fact that they did not perform well is only offset by the fact that the Marine player actually elected to go for the Piranhas rather than the XV88's (though they were taken down eventually but got an extra turn of shooting in). The point though was that the drones were not overly effective and the Piranhas proved easy targets.

Your answers are reinforcing my view that the Piranhas are really hard to use in a competitive list though, the fact that your saying that for instance cover is needed to perform in the centre of the field, that you are carefull and hold them back in the rear and that you only use them aggressively in certain circumstances all seem to hammer home the point that they are a very fragile unit and this fragility can and does get in the way.
I am not saying they do not have uses and you have shown they do, however in competitive lists I just think the fragility allied to restrictive weaponry is to damaging to the units usefulness as a choice for a competitive list made to meet all comers in things like tournies and club league games etc.

LN I promise this will not get into a flame war or anything, we are covering new points like are Piranhas a good choice for tournie lists etc and how useful the drones are compared to DF drones etc.
 
#30 ·
I just wanted to clarify the position because you used the description 'drone squad, I know there has been a bit of confusion regarding drones forming squads when dropped from Piranhas (do they, don't they? etc) and I wanted to make sure that players understood that the same rule for forming drone squads does not apply to Devilfish and the use of the word squad could have been misunderstood by newer players (thinking they would operate as a normal squad).
This is why I described exactly what would happen with the drones when dropped.
Sorry to sound picky but I know how easily things are misunderstood in this game.
I did not actually think you would run them as a squad but I just wanted to be sure. I agree it would be an effective stalling tactic especially if you maintained a 2" gap between each mini squadron.
 
#32 ·
No I did not misunderstand, the problem was the wording he used 'squad' implies just that a squad, I know he mentioned the consolidation and this is what I thought needed clarifying, not for me or you but for players who are not as experienced or as knowledgeable with the rules, you seem to forget that this forum is open to anyone and not just experienced players.
Please do not assume, I read every single line of blues post, I didn't assume anything either way, which is why I asked Blue 1st then clarified the rules for drones carried by DF and Piranhas
 
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