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In a lot of the lists that I've been writing up lately, I'm including a pair of SC toting Warriors in my Incubi retinues (usually 3-5 Incubi). Though I realize that the purpose of the retinue is to get stuck in assault and hack, rather than stand back and shoot, there are a few things that make me like the combination:
1) The retinue can't fleet; so if they're moving and not in assault, the Warriors can shoot their SCs, which is far better than moving and shooting nothing at all.
2) SCs are great for thinning out hordes, which can present problems for Incubi. I know that Incubi are best used against 'hard' targets, but if you're fighting Orks, 'Nids or IG, these are sometimes in short supply.
3) If my Incubi happen to clear out the area they're in and can't reach assault again right away, the squad can still contribute a kill or two while repositioning.
4) They're delightfully cheap, points-wise.
5) As long as there are more 3+ save models than 5+, they don't hurt the squads overall armor saves.
6) They make great ablative armor, if necessary, once they reach assault.
I'd like to solicit opinions/experiences/war-stories from veterans who have tried this combination. Is it an effective use of points in an all-comers list?
Thanks in advance!
Mmm. I used to take cannon warriors in the retinue, and it isn't that bad but it is far too risky in my opinion. You run a couple of risks. First that you'll kill a couple and your buddy will remove the closest couple of models to you so you can't assault them at all so you'll get shot up and killed all for the sake of a couple of dead enemies. Then, even if you are still in range after that point, they could fail a leadership test (rallying next turn) and leave you there in the dirt, same scenario really. I think it was kwi who found the same thing. Well, assuming the dice gods love you and your opponent doesn't remove the closest models, I suppose it's alright.
Tenozuma - The Burninator... I came, I saw, I posted.Originally Posted by Aussie Bogan
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I have failed too many charges because of shooting the enemy before the charge - unless I am 1" away I would much rather have the kills in CC than in shooting (as to win combat assuredly). Besides, you also run the risk of killing too many in the shooting phase and may cause your target to run away at the end of the shooting phase (been there done that!).
Speed is my armor and CC is my shield - the two combined give me the ultimate protection. If I can't get into CC then your going to get shot up, no thank you.
As for incubi and/or warrior retinue - I dont like either but its more of a bias, nothing wrong with using them - they just don't float my boat. I like my Archons separate and will usually find a squad for him to join during set-up and then separate once they get moving (so he can 12" charge).
The only retinue I ever use is when using Lelith with a wych retinue - Lelith gets to pick the drug for the retinue and her and I usually take the 12" charge drug so they dont slow her down.
I'm pretty careful about my charge ranges and shooting too much into squads that are on the borderline. I've been burned a time or two using my CSM. I can only imagine how nasty it would be to fail a charge and be in rapid fire range for a squad of paper-armored DE. I'd happily charge an Incubi Retinue + Dracon into a regular SMurf squad without shooting On the other hand, if there are 20 Orks and 10 of them are less than 5" away, it makes sense to let the guns be heard.
I'm at the beginning of a cross-country move right now, but as soon as I get where I'm going, I definitely have to put my DE on the table a few times and work this out for myself. I understand and greatly appreciate the advice, but I want to test this out for myself and see if these two cheap guns make back their points in an average game.
I agree with the majority, splinter cannon warriors in an incubi retinue are not worth it. They end up either
1. Killing too many models so that you can't charge
2. Or win CC in the first round of combat, and therefore are stuck as a sitting duck. Both I have seen happen.
I also don't use Incubi, I use awrriors or wytches, but that's another thread altogether.
point 3 I see as being highly plausable and if your retinue is out of movement/charge range then I see no problem in having splinter cannon toting warriors being there to add to your flexibilty with increased firepower but I do see the point that the others are making. That of not shooting up the enemy squad that you "may" wish to assault that turn.
It all depends on "that turn" however, to me its one or the other that should be attempted per turn, you either shoot what is out of charging range or fore go your firepower and charge with your assault monsters. And therein lies the problem, your retinues cannons in most circumstances could have been easily combined into another footsloging warrior squad with even more effectiveness (point 4).
This post to me is about getting the most out of your cannons rather than using the Incubi to best effect and for my money the cannons are most effective when combined with normal warriors as they then become their ablative armour (point 6). It makes more sense using a cheap warrior as a wound than upgraded warrior as such in a retinue.
In a controversy the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves.
i just plain prefer a bunch of incubi cause i dont like to mix in shooty troops into an all close combat squad as many things can happen that other before me have lifted so i wont repeat them. however you do have some good points but i would rather use all incubi take out troops in the area maybe 1, 2 or 3 squads if im lucky then slooowly advance to the next squad if not shot to pieces or the game ends due the last turn. i find that incubi kill some stuff then when their done die horrible if not already dead, i wouldnt do anything to counteract this as it can screw up their initial engagements which are the most important engagements as they will only do a couple of close combats and you probably wont have time to do splinter canon this and splinter canon that and i would have warrior gunboats do the splintery canoneering.
SC's in incubi retinues are very good I would always use them I do agree with Teno though.
Sometimes its a bad idea as it may leave you out of charge range, I would take either 5 incubi without or 3 incubi with the 2 warriors and SC's.
Though don't be put off in using them, if you think by shooting you will leave yourself out of charge range then don't shoot, It's as simple as that, theres gonna be circumstances where its best not to shoot.
For example a relatively weak squad you don't want to butcher too fast as it may end in one assault turn and leave your squad wide open to be shot to bits then don't shoot.
Problem with incubi lord combo is its too good, majority of them time you butcher a squad in a turn or the squad fleed, leaving yourself wide open to get shot to bits, This happens and something that can't be avoided.
It is worthwile having SC's but use your better judgement and analyse the situation before taking the shots, just cause you have them doesn't necessarily mean you gotta shoot them every turn.
If you're always worried about crushing the ants beneath you...you won't be able to walk.
Agreed, and for the reason KwiKwag mentioned, even though he didn't specifically say he didn't use incubi.Originally Posted by MongooseoIncubi simply have no place in my army. They're slow. They're point-sinks. And as a sheer theoryhammer argument, they're not worth their points. Assume you need to make three armor saves. Would you rather lose one 25 point incubi, or two 8 point warriors? Or, would you like a 5 man incubi retinue, or an 8 man raider squad complete with raider for your archon to hide in? A 5 man incubi retinue, or a 9 member wych squad?Originally Posted by KwiKwag
I know which I'd choose, and it's not the incubi either way. (I also wanna bang my head into the wall when you have to pay MORE points to give up the 20 point power weapon for a 5 point blaster). They should have 'blaster' tormentor helms if you're actually going to pay points for those upgrades...but that's another rant, not needed here.
I find it's better to have 6-8 man raider squads and wych squads, and just hide my archon in one of them. He'll jump out and assault a likely-looking target of troops, clear his kill zone, consolidate in, and wait for backup. And he normally survives long enough for backup to get there. If I get a wych squad with a 12" charge range, I just hit heaven. That's a squad with a 26" assault range not counting fleet. And it will tear up nearly anything under the sun without even slowing down. Charge that squad into a bunch of genestealers? Sure. Happily. And watch as the genestealers learn who the true masters of close combat really are. Probably the only model in existence who can expect to fight genestealers and have a good chance of surviving the encounter, or at least killing them on a 1 to 1 basis.
I think Dizzie understands my point of view here. Those Warriors with the SCs are pretty cheap, so it's not really going to break my heart if I don't have them fire because it could wreck my chances at getting into assault. The retinue + Dracon (I wouldn't use an Archon with Incubi) is made for getting stuck in assault. Having a pair of SCs is simply gravy; I'll use them only when it's in my best interests. Also, having only 3 Incubi in the retinue, instead of a full 5, will cut down on my overkill.