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Which one should I take? Can someone put some Pros and Cons for each?
CT (With Miskal Prime Necrons)
Ok so i'll go through a few in a list. I've only fielded the deceiver once (guess which one i prefer )
Can template himself...at s6...
Can Make S3- models run in opponents turn
Can shoot cannon
Can make fearless units run
Can avoid combat
I think NB gets an extra attack but not too sure on that one, or is it deceivers S is 1 less? sorry guys
(i'll edit this later when i have my codex with me lol)
Now with that the Implications also need to be explored. Because the NB hits at the same time as our lord the enemy can't deny one of them an attack by removing casualties from base to base. But the Deceiver hits before the lord, this just means ya gotta be more careful with how you use them in conjunction, i sometimes use my NB with Lord Vs something like Bloodthirster but i don't think it would be any worse with deceiver.
Last edited by spamglish; September 25th, 2007 at 10:01. Reason: Didn't stack right in columns :S
This question sorta pops up every now and then, here be latest one *here clicky clicky* (poll: Which C' tan is better?) ;Y
Should pretty much answer your question
LO RULESOriginally Posted by Jaffar_Hasad
In my opinion it completely depends on who/what you're fighting.
The Deciever needs a Lower Leadership, heavy hitting army as its opponent to really shine. Making units run in fear is always fun. Otherwise it's just another slow, easily avoidable CC monster.
The Nightbringer shines in smaller, lower stregnth armies and those that try to avoid him. He's got a nasty ranged attack that can shred tanks to pieces at a good range and the ability to get himself out of combat against lesser-stregnth units. He won't have the movement potential of the Deceiver and his "bounce out of combat every turn" rule which can move him in ANY direction away from an enemy unit. This can be used to leap-frog him to where ever he needs to be.
Chaos - 55,000+ points
Tyranids - 15,000+ points
Necrons - 6000 points
An old debate. Problem is, most of us don't use both on a regular basis, so we have only anectdotal evidence. I bought the Deceiver for a couple of reasons. 1) He's just as hard to kill as the NB, for enough fewer points to add a significant model to the army: same toughness, same saves, same wounds. I suppose his lower WS might cost a hit or two against a really sick enemy character, but not more than that. 2) His higher initiative. He'll almost always strike first, limiting the number of return attacks, or at least simultaneously. 3) The jump out of combat move. The great weakness of the C'tan is their hideous movement (why a flying god move so slowly is beyond me: must be going for the "stately and majestic" look). The Deceiver can find a unit to attack and then jump towards a unit or model he really wants to reach in the opponents assault phase, then move and assault in his own turn. That should be worth 20" or so of mobility. It's the only way you're going to get at that winged Demon Prince you'd really like to kill, or that pesky tank that's dropping templates on your warriors. His other skills are nice, but I haven't yet made a unit run (I play Sisters and Chaos: the buggers never fail an ld test), and haven't been able to entice an enemy into biting on the old "look, my Destroyers are out of cover over here" deployment trick.
Seems to me the NB's primary gift is controlling a table quarter all by himself. No one wants to go near him, and he can still fire off a short-range lascannon type shot, not that that's worth his points. Can't really say, though, since I don't have him.
I didn't yet use a single one of them because I do not play Necrons. But they have been used against me. Not often and long/successful enough (oh do I suddenly love those snipers every time one of the Star-Gods comes by for a visit) for me to make a judgement based entirely on those games, but it is -as far as I am concerned- not too difficult to compare their abilities in theory.
A problem merely arises when having to decide between the two, but since that's what this is all about we shall try to do so nonetheless.
Let me go through all the differences. They have a lot of things in common, but these need not be mentioned throughout this "contest".
Nightbringer's higher WS...
...is pretty much worthless. Standard WS3/4 enemies are hit on a 3+ by the Nightbringer and Deceiver alike, while they themselves are both hit on a 4+. The Nightbringer does have an advantage against WS5 models, but the only ones spontaneously coming to my mind are characters, and the Deceiver will still score and wound his one hit needed to instantkill (if the character is protected against instantkills he most probably will also have a 4+ invulnerable saves and 3 wounds, meaning both C'tan would take at least two rounds to kill him).
Against really mean close combat units such as Genestealers, again both will hit only on a 4+ regardless of their differing WS.
Nightbringer's higher BS...
...is, yeah, fine. But the Deceiver won't be using his, so this is not really a good point.
Nightbringer's higher S...
...is able to instantkill enemy models with a T one higher than Deceiver. Spontaneously, though, no multi-wound models with that specific toughness come to my mind. Nonetheless, this -of course- is a (slight) advantage.
Deceiver's higher I...
...probably won't have any effect on the game. Most enemy models coming to my mind that are able to harm the C'tan either have an I above or below 4. This means the Deceiver won't be killing anything that could possibly cause him any harm sooner than the Nightbringer will.
Nightbringer's more A...
...are a small boon. Though the Deceiver can choose to fight only where he charges (and thus have the same amount of A) the Deceiver really takes more time when it comes down to really extinct an enemy squad in close combat, because of less attacks per turn or same amount of attacks but fighting only every second turn.
Nightbringer's Lightning Arc...
...definitely is a potent weapon. Range is not that of a heavy destroyer but decent still. For popping tanks this might come in very useful, though I do not see why anyone would allow the Nightbringer within such a short range and line of sight of their - usually mobile - tanks.
Moreover, people often forget that a single-shot weapon, even with the Nightbringer's BS and the given S, will not necessarily terminate (though very likely at least temporarily delay) a tank just because it gets to shoot. Still we are bound to acknowledge that this ability boosts the C'tan's performance.
Nightbringer's Gaze of Death...
...is awesome in close combat. The S may not seem high, but piercing any armor is just insanely effective.
A guard-like infantry squad will lose about 7 of 10 models and be outnumbered 3:1, thus checking morale with a -4 modifier and probably running never to consolidate again if not sweeped (very likely - and hopefully allowing the Nightbringer to consolidate into the next unit). Should they choose to stay, the Nightbringer's many attacks will suffice to kill the remains of the squad before it's his turn again, so he'll be free to move on.
Nightbringer's Etheric Tempest...
...can save Necron unlives against an army with a lot of S3 troops. It is very seldomly useful to free the Nightbringer itself from combat (such models tend to have T3 too and can thus be wiped out by Gaze of Death instead of blown back intact).
Used to support other friendly troops it, due to short range and enemy close combat troops mostly having higher strength, probably will not come to bear very often.
...looks nice on the paper but is more of a disappointment regarding its name-giving function for this C'tan. Most unmodified Ld tests will be passed by any army. The slight chance of actually pinning or scaring a unit away is to maybe be considered a nice gimmick on the Deceiver, but certainly nothing spectacular.
Trying to make it work more reliably by marching up a unit of Pariahs at his side halves the effective range of the power, thus again rendering it quite unspectacular.
Deceiver's Grand Illusion...
...just rocks! One mistake in deployment (especially if a very serious one, such as deploying the Monolith and the enemy then setting up his army in the opposite corner of the battle-field, costing you a high number of precious turns to get into range) can automatically be corrected, while the possibility for even more changes is given.
It is a quite unique power and can be used to even out any possible lapses during deployment, or even rather offensively to really surprise the enemy.
...looks nice, too. But again: unmodified Ld tests seldomly fail, and since this ability can only be used on the turn of a friendly unit's charge it will not come to bear very often. If it could be used to protect any friendly unit in close combat, this ability could have serious influence on the outcome of the game.
[If used successfully on the opponents of Wraiths, though, they become more than only invulnerable. Being hit only on a 6, then, if wounded, invulnerable saving on a 3+, and then, if killed, getting back up on a 4+... party on!]
...makes him so much more durable than compared to the Nightbringer. A full squad of 12 basic genestealers would kill the Nightbringer in two assault phases, allowing him only to kill 6 of them with a Gaze of Death once. The result is a lost C'tan without having gained a single victory point, and the Tyranid player still having a scoring unit of six genestealers ready to assault the next unit of warriors - and it's his turn!
The Deceiver instead, when charged by them, will just move away before any harm is done. It's your turn next and your warriors will take those genestealers apart from afar. This ability can be used to draw such units out of cover by presenting the Deceiver as bait!
Moreover, it grants the Deceiver really good mobility that will enable him to quickly come to aid other friendly troops in a close combat about 19" away!
Let's round it up: the only decisive pros and cons seem to be the Nightbringer's abilities to quickly bring an assault to end with Gaze of Death, to guard nearby friendly units with the Etheric Tempest and being able to shoot a powerful ranged attack just in case, while the Deceiver is a lot more durable but otherwise, apart from the mighty Grand Illusion, only minimally useful.
Now taking into account the fact that the C'tan probably won't get into any close combats they will easily win (your opponent won't be as stupid as to not run away) it all comes down to those abilities that grant serious advantages beyond holding a table quarter on its own and scaring off the enemy.
This is the time to weigh off the Nightbringer's Lightning Arc, slight chance of getting to use Etheric Tempest to protect friendly troops and greater havoc potential should the enemy make a mistake that enables the C'tan to reach close combat, against the Deceiver's Grand Illusion and greater durability against any assaulty threats as well as being able to charge from one close combat into the next one far away and come to aid your troops there.
Not an easy decision and certainly dependant on the army you play, the scenario being played, the battle-field being played on, the opponent being played against, and your playing style in general. Still: however you may decide, just keep in mind the higher points cost of the Nightbringer as compared to the Deceiver...
In general I would not field a C'tan at all. Against shooty armies they are a big points sink. But if I would, it probably were the Deceiver, as he is somewhat more effective concerning the protection of your units due to his Misdirect ability, is cheaper and offers the opportunity to change deployment after initial setup.
Even though that, as I already said, depended on the game (along with all its variables; namely scenario, opponent, battle-field, type of army list I am using...) being played...
Hope the one or the other thought is useful to you.
Red Archer, you've brought up some very good points, but I'd like to point out that characters with a 4+ Invulnerable save and 3 wounds still easily fall to the C'Tan, they ignore all saves, and wound almost everything on 2's. And if the model isn't protected from instant death, it's very possible to take out 2 in one turn (I know I've done it). Your other assesments seem sound, I take the Nightbringer, and although he rarely gets to show his full worrth in combat, he is much more effective at creating a 30" radius of emptiness around him. It can be very handy for protecting blocks of warriors from close-combat armies.
That, in return, means that the Nightbringer is pretty sure to bring down a 3-wound character even if protected from instant death in a single turn of close combat, while the Deceiver will likely fail. Another point taken for the Nightbringer!
[My friend once hid his C'tan behind a wall of Tomb Spyders referring on the rule that monstrous creatures block line of sight. But after the game we found out that the models' eyesight counts in this case - and the C'tan certainly is much taller than those Spyders. (Not to mention that I just shot the Spyders before firing on the C'tan, only granting me even more easily and safely earned victory points...)]