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Okay, I love options and rulesets in games that allow me to nerf or otherwise control the player's movements, options, and turns. There are VERY few of these instances in 40K, and for good reason, but the Dark Eldar do present such options to thier generals; I want to make good use of these.
I also want to describe my Dark Eldar force for what they are: raiders and pirates. They're not all about all out war, decimating an oppsing force, none of that. They're all about the hit and run, spooking your opponent, picking off easy targets, grabbing goods and slaves, and vanishing without a trace. I want to try and win by grabbing the extra victory points awarded for picking up capturing slaves and such. I'm not going for the crushing victory, I'm going for the 1 or two 2 point lead taken early on in the game that the Dark Eldar can seemingly easily pull off.
To that end, I have a crazy and wild plan: I want to use as many options and wargear to whittle down my opponent's Ld (Trophy Racks, Terrorfex, Horrorfex, Xenospasm), capture as many prisioners as possible, hitting hard and fast, getting that extra point lead early on in game.
This is my proposal:
Use groups of two Raiders, one with 10 warriors, Syrabrite w/terrorfex and Agoniser, the other loaded up with Wytches. Give the Warrior's Raider a Horrorfex, Slave Snares, and Trophy Racks, (torture amp possibly). Run them both up to the same unit, the Warrior's Raider flies over the unit, slave snaring along the way, deploys the warriors behind the unit. Raider pops its Horrorfex, Warriors pop thier Terrorfex, and splinter the heck out of the unit from behind. Witches deploy in front of the unit, shooty, (possibly another Terrorfex and Horrofex here), splinter pistol shooty, and wytch assaulty. Hopefully, the unit will break from the abuse, TrophyRacks making sure thier Ld is low, and will try and fall back. Warriors are in thier line of retreat. Massacre. Remove the entire unit and roll for those prisoners. Raider Dark Lances are in perfect line for side/rear armor shots on those pesky tanks and vehicles.
I might want to introduce some Gruesome Talismans to tip the results of a combat further in my favor.
This would probably wouldn't be an all-rounder, best against IG, Tau, or other relitivly low Ld armies, though I would like to be able to break MEQ's Ld in a similar fashion as well.
Risky...VERY risky...but could it work?
Any tips or tricks for DE to break Ld effectivly?
Let me know how crazy this idea is, or how you might pull it off yourself. The field is wide open to all sorts of ideas...so comment gosh darn it!
Thanks in advance!
Actually, I've tried a DE list before where the object was PIN and shoot! It works incredibly against... space marines? Surprisingly true. They dont have that many fearless models. *damn death company*
But my army list was something more like this (in 1000 pts)
4 raider squads, 1 blaster, 1 splinter cannon. syrabite with terrorfex
each raider also sports a horrorfex
4 haemonculi, one in each raider, with a horrorfex and destructor
2 sniper squads
1 ravager, 2 disintegrators, 1 DL
I absolutely annihiliated the Blood Angel army I was facing. With 12 pinning weapons, there were just too many leadership checks and I was able to pin nearly all the units on the board at any given time. (except for a darn devastator team, death company, librarian)
Naturally my opponent was incredibly aggrivated I was taking apart even his terminators piece by piece by massed str 3 fire and he could do nothing about it. Fearless units and other far away units got nailed by dark lances, disentegrators and other mean things. Great fight.
Now, my only qualm was the lack of CC, because thats where the slaves come in. You seemed to have fixed that problem EXCEPT...
Sure, you'll rape that unit. The pinning won't really do anything because you're assaulting into it with wyches, but then you have a bunch of warriors sitting out in the open to be demolished next turn. If you could back this incredibly nasty tactic with more pinning squads just to stop other units from wasting you next turn, I think most of the bases are covered then.
I think I'm gonna give this a shot too. I love fresh ideas!
Works but you have to really be careful of what you sitck onto raiders - they really musn't be too pricey.
As far as it goes horrorfex, slave snares and trophy racks are the maximum you want.
Don't bother with the torture amp, raiders really shouldn't be tank shocking and they have a tendency to lose when you do tank shock.
I'm almost tempted to say grotesques - but they have a tendency to wipe out entire units when combined with an HQ (which is what it shiuld be) due to their auto fall back rule - however it does give you loads of VP for prisoners (especially when said HQ unit has a animus vitae).
Thing is this list will heavily depend on what points level you play - at 1500 you are going to struggle vs some lists (contrary to belief guard would do better than sm due to numbers).
Risky is the right word - you would be relying badly on short range fire and not some of DE's awesome support units. So to that end it would pay to give warriors and wyches blasters just in case you do end up standing toe to toe with a dreadnaught.
your problem, as far as I can see, is this, you are commiting 2 untis and their transports to breaking one infantry unit with the hope that there is nothing else interefering, I suspect that in practical terms it is not do-able very often
Everything you have been told is a lie!
You're not crazy on this idea - in fact, I think you are right on target but I am in the minority here. I fully support your endeavor to be "fluffy" and try and help you take as many slaves as you can even if it means you will not win (but lets hope you will).
So how do we take slaves game wise? Obvious, I know but here it is anyway:
1. Sweeping Advance, the most popular way.
2. Causing "Fall-Back" (special army rule on a 4+) – this is how we take Marines!
3. Slave snares – costly but can usually make their points back with one marine or 2.
Using these methods and embellishing them into a common squad and troop choice was easy. I have been using this particular set-up I call a “Slaver Squad”. It can be put into any kind of list and actually give that squad purpose. Although expensive point wise I find that I can overlook the point cost for the sheer prospect of the chance of taking slaves.
Slaver Squad (around 220+ points)
7 to 8 warriors, blaster, splinter cannon, splinter rifles
1 Sybarite, Agoniser, splinter pistol, xenospasm (or terrorfex)
1 Raider, darklance (or disintegrator), horrorfex, slave snares (and sometimes trophyracks).
*Note - room has been left on purpose to allow a lord or haemoculus to ride with them if desired.
This unit can start anywhere (on the board, in the warp or in reserves as deep striker). It's first priority is to find a target that they can pin and then on the next turn rake them over with the slave snares. The raider has the first responsibility of trying to pin and the sybarite is the back up. If I am facing a fearless target then the raider can either try to “pop” nearby armor or it can assist in reducing the target so it can assaulted successfully and safely. If the target is successfully pinned by the raider, the squad (which disembarked) can now rapid-fire without fear of being assaulted or having their target run away. In case the raider doesn’t pin then the Sybarite is a back-up. At this point you will only fire the Sybarites weapon (xenospasm or terrorfex), the blaster and the Splinter cannon (so you can assault in case you don’t pin the second time). However, causing fall-back or a sweeping advance isn’t the most likely thing to happen with warriors so thinning out the target first can be crucial to their success.
Does this work? It does, about once a game where I am not facing fearless targets. When I am facing fearless armies I am stuck in using only the raider’s slave snares and it too has been successful in grabbing targets as well. Is this squad worth it point wise? I find one such raider per game to be able to snatch slaves. Do they make their points back? Not if you count all the wargear together. The one raider that manages to scoop slaves can make their points back with 1 or 2 marines but usually that raider becomes the #1 target on the board and everything else is forgotten so their life span is usually a turn after they successfully scoop someone. Even when I have run 2 or 3 Slaver Squads I find usually only one will get into position and have a chance of succeeding so it may not be really an efficient way of taking slaves.
Is it fun? Unbelievably fun. I have had the opposing player tell me how cool it is that I “scooped” up their models as slaves – I even have had the opposing player wish I succeeded just for the “cool factor” of the idea. I have scooped a good sample of just about every race so far including Harlequins, Zoanthropes, Obliterators, Demonettes, Marines, Gaunts, Kroot, FireWarriors, and a whole bunch of IG.
As for Trophy Racks on Raiders I no longer use them. In most of the situations the Raiders had a tough time getting within 6” of the enemy to make them work and when I did get within 6” I forgot I had them most of the time. So I saved myself several points in less than effective wargear.
I have also used them in Deep Strike situations with some success but I find I try to avoid doing that as I would rather disembark the squad for survivability purposes and/or assault. They really are unpredictable when they arrive and where they land and it becomes a tacticians "nightmare" from game to game. I will say in one game they were priceless as one Slaver Squad landed behind a Dreadnaught and was able to destroy it with a splinter cannon! In this instance, the list was an "Army of Shadows" or should I say, "Army of Shadow Slavers" with the entire army deepstriking (except the mandrakes), pinning and trying to scoop slaves.
I haven't tried the night shield idea yet as it was another boat load of points going into a raider (which raiders are really meant for one purpose: 1 turn transport of troops). Though I try to make them last another turn or two so they can take slaves the nightshields are just over the top (horrorfex and slave snares are the limit for me).
Hope this inspires you and I am not trying to keep you from using screaming jets, trophy racks or other raider upgrades but rather just be "informed" on the hardships of making them work - if you can find a way that would be great!
What kind of army are you thinking of using? Kabal? Cult or Coven? Army of Shadows?
Good luck on your idea and when you need inspiration read the last journal entry of Marenza Balthus of the Thangod Colony on Beta-Coplin XXI "Devilnacht" (last fluff story on the back page of our codex). Fear, its whats for dinner.
darkspawn - Cool idea, and thanks a ton for the army list; I might go ahead and try yours as well! I do tend to play against a TON of MEQ armies (if it isn't marines, its Chaos, SoB, or GK's) 12 pinning weapons could be pretty nasty
The_Outsider - Point taken about the Raiders, I guess they're pretty flimsy if the enemy can get a good hit on them. Torture Amp would make a decent piece of gear, but not necssicary, might get the Raider into more trouble than it can handle too.
[QUOTE=The_Outsider;1024471]I'm almost tempted to say grotesques - but they have a tendency to wipe out entire units when combined with an HQ (which is what it shiuld be) due to their auto fall back rule - however it does give you loads of VP for prisoners (especially when said HQ unit has a animus vitae).QUOTE]
Interesting idea about the Grots, I had totally put them from my mind untill now. Didn't even know about thier nasty auto fall-back rule. Almost worth the points for them. Loading them on a raider with a CC tooled HQ with Animus Vitae, that might slake my thirst for prisoners (and VP) jsut enough to get by. Thanks a bunch for the tip!
Cheredanine - You're totally right, of course, it is rather foolish to gang up 2 units and thier transports on only one infantry unit, then leaving myself wide open for counter attack. I think I could get the tactic to work on a pretty regular basis, though I would have nowhere else to go after that tactic was complete, except to get shot up. What I am asking for was possible ideas to mold an unsound, but nasty tactic into something formidable.
KwiKwag - AWESOMENESS! Slaver Squads, dedicated units for prisioner capture; pure genieous! There should be an entry in the new Codex (whenever that might be) dedicated to DE Slavers. ^_^ Some REALLY good advice, explainations, and support there! I'll probably try a few of your ideas.
Well, as for the tactic proposed before, I might leave it by the wayside, at least for the moment. I like darkspawn's pinning army idea, so i think I might base it off of that. KwiKwag's Slaver Squad ideas are great: pin the unit, then keep sweeping the unit with the snares. Hey, the Radiers have to keep moving, right? I also might take either a load of grots, wyches, or incubi along with a tooled up HQ w/Animus Vitae to load up on prisoners/VP, as per The_Outsider's suggestion.
I might still try my original idea as far as putting slave snares on the raiders, fly over the unit, drop the warriors behind, pin the units and if they break and fall back, the warriors will still be blocking the way. Maybe, i'll have to see.
Any other ideas on how best for Dark Eldar to break morale and Ld? Any other nasty combos that DE generals use to gain slaves and extra VP? Please let me know!
Thanks in advance to all!
Last edited by Son Of The Forge; October 19th, 2007 at 20:16. Reason: KwiKwag replied while I was typing my response! >.<
Now with the Slaver Squad in mind the next idea is rather extreme but extremely fluffy and it deals with dedicating your "elites" of the list to capturing slaves - you guessed it, grotesques.
Now we can do it in a Kabal and its probably the best option as an Archon and a Dracon with their own retinues of grotesques should have a good chance of causing enough wounds to win combat. Of course we know if we win combat with a squad of Grotesques we can cause the non-fearless armies to fall-back.
The other option is in a "Coven" type list that uses no lords, wyches or wych type units - even the heavy choices are all Talos. This is my favorite list lately and is perfect (fluff-wise) for using both Slaver Squads and Grotesques. I take usually 6 Haemoculi, 2 or 3 squads of Grotesques and 2 or 3 slaver squads. The HQ structure looks like this:
1 Haemy on a jetbike, shadowfield, combat drugs, destructor, scissorhand etc.
1 Haemy on a Skyboard, combat drugs, destructor, scissorhand, etc.
2 Haemys on a raider with 8 grotesques
2 Haemys with drugs, weapons and wwp (can ride with grots and other haemy or walk).
Sometimes I skip the second raider of grots and put the grots on the ground as a walking meatshield to lay the portal. Once the portal is set in the 2nd turn the talos come out as well as the jetbike and skyboard haemy. The Slaver squads can go either way depending on the enemy you face and I usually include a large group of foot-slogging warriors as well. In this kind of list the Talos and Grotesques are close combat units while the warriors and raiders are tank busting - sometimes the slaver squads just can't ingnore that predator or dreadnaught and have to pop armor.
The fluffy goodness of this list is a Coven purely trying to collect slaves for their Kabal or for their own experiments (perhaps they need that special character marine for their next Talos). Also, a Haemoculus isnt much of a killing machine like the Archon and is somewhat mysterious in nature (a mad-scientist/torturer). It just seems right to have all the Haemoculi with their Grot and Talos pets. Idea with combat drugs for haemys is to make them a little more productive in close combat - it may be over the top for most people but I can't see running the Haemys with drugs. Death-by-armor-save is the motto here so the more wounds you can inflict the better (and pray he fails them).
Its a tough list that will not over-power any one and will take alot of strategy to win. Believe it or not I don't have a real problem with Marines, its the faster armies like eldar and nids that are problematic. Its simply getting the Talos into CC and eliminating the armor that makes the list win but can you take slaves as well? That's the art of it.
I just had a random thought to do with grotesques.
Think about it, Archon (or dracon) charge one of those 50 strong conscript units o doom.
Naturally the grots and archon win. Due to the grots "terrifying opponent" conscripts fall back and the archon beats them on I + D6. thats (assuming archon has the vitae) something like 250 victory points in prisoners!
Overall I think if you want to make a "horror" DE list you are going to rely heavily on your troops (raider squads FTW) and maybe elites. Careful allocation of an archon/dracon and haemonculous is key here.
Hmm, maybe 1 tooled archon with incubi.
1 decently tooled dracon to go with some grotesques and then 3 haemonculous to spread out with the raider squads (or any other grots).
Haemonculous in raiders squads would be sick - 1 horrorfex on raider, 1 terrorfex on sybarite and 1 terrorfex on the amenculous. Thats 3 pinning tempaltes (that would stack IIRC) from one unit.
Whens the last time you saw LD10 units having to roll insane heroism from shooting?
But if they do stack, how would that work, though? Would it be three different pinning tests at the stacked modifier? Would the modifier stack with the successive shots: 1st shot @ -1 Ld, 2nd shot @ -2, etc...? Or would they not stack at all but cause three different pinning tests at their respective modifiers?
I'll have to read into pinning rules more, but if someone has the quick answer, please let me know.
Either way, I do believe the "Horror/Slaver" army that The_Outsider and KwiKwag are describing is probably very close to what I'm going to be ending up with. Very fluffy, and in the right hands and mindset, could be competitive as well. Thanks a bunch for all of your guy's ideas! Really been helpful.
Any other questions, comments, or vile disagreements form the rest of the peanut gallery? ^_^ Go ahead, post it, gosh darn it!
Just when I'm trying to theme an army around slave taking you guys come up with this. It's brilliant. Some of them are tried and tested (like using grotes and their auto fall back to take out whole units) but combining it with the animus is good and some of the other stuff is excellent. I've also sort of come up with a use for hellions. When grotesques cause a unit to auto fall back they need another unit with a high initiative to catch the retreating squad for them. A small, cheap squad of hellions with wyches' high initiative can fulfill this role well. If you've got a succubus there they can also win the combat for them if they're struggling (though I'd be careful using a succubus in a squad of only 3 or so). Also, never forget the archangel of pain. While it only causes a -2 modifier and it's one use only you don't need to roll to hit, and combined with a trophy rack, a -3 pinning test still isn't bad. Plus it's a third of the cost of a terrofex.
You'd have the archon/dracon with animus vitae with grotes....
Slaver squads for troops (nice kwi *rep*)
2 more squads of grotes (with obligatory haemos but that's still good)
another haemo wherever you want him
1 small hellion squad at... 54 points plus any upgrades you like (is this why they're 0-1? ) and a small reaver squad to support the other grotes squad (or if you've got a relaxed little group you could ask your opponent to let you take more than 1 hellion squad in the name of fun).
if you like, heavy choices of choice (fluffiest is scourges since splinter weapons don't kill, they incapacitate).
maybe another reaver squad for tank hunting (whirlwinds and basilisks...) or a sniper squad or 2 to take care of extra vehicles.
It's particularly good against squads right next to eachother. The grotes unload (not needing a stupidity test because of the haemos) and the haemos de-attach after this, the haemos help contribute to the slaver squads' cause (doing as kwi instructed) with pinning (or frying if you like), and so can the grotes' raiders (horrofexes). The grote squads (with their support) do their own thing and capture lots of slaves. Heavy choices aren't really needed but ravagers could take care of fearless units for you.
You can also still make it a WWP army when you've got too many raiders, just take that spare haemo, maybe a footslogging warrior squad or 2 and do as normal. This also makes the talos viable. Try to use it in Cities of Death games where we have as much level 3 scenery as we need, thereby not needing the webway portal. It also makes the talos slightly better since, like in cleanse, you can start close to the center of the board, and up to 18" away.
Of course an army like this will suck against tyranids (synapse), daemonhunters (fearless grey knights) or necrons (can't capture them) but it would be incredibly fun anyway. And the grote units still dominate necrons (you auto catch them with an archon ) and could work against grey knights too (causing them to take extra saves due to outnumber). It also leaves the problem armies like Mech Eldar and Mech Tau, who are increasingly popular, but again, fun.
I've never personally been a fan of terrofexes since they're triple the cost of the superior horrofexes but it might be worth it if you're doing all that stacking. And all of that with no wyches or warp beats (the 2 most celebrated DE units) makes it all the more satisfying. Though you obviously can still do it with wyches.
Last edited by Tenozuma; October 21st, 2007 at 01:28.
Tenozuma - The Burninator... I came, I saw, I posted.Originally Posted by Aussie Bogan
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