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In my club, there are quite a few marine players, and I have a lot of problems beating them. The problem is that they have high firepower armies, and they set up right against the back edge of thier deployment zone, and by the time I get there, I dont have enough punch left to do anything.
My army is basically a shooty flyrant
1 sniper fex
a squad or 2 of raveners
the rest is genestealers
sometimes a lictor
I have tried using the genestealers in different ways. With a 4+ save, naked, scuttlers, but no matter what I do, I can't get through thier firepower.
PLEASE HELP, I'm getting very frustrated.
You need fast units right in his face.
I'd suggest trying some hormagaunts in there.
If he shoots the hormagaunts, that's more genestealers which are going to hit his lines.
If he shoots the genestelaers, the hormagaunts will hit him and tie him up in CC, so that's still more genies which are going to hit his lines.
Additionally, hormagaunts combo EXTREMELY well with raveners (i.e assaulting the same unit)
You may also wish to try scuttle gaunts as they're generally acknowledged as a great discount hormagaunt.
I'd personally recommend gargoyles. Their fire power is actually not bad against marines - especially considering their S and the living ammunition rules.
Also, they're terrifyingly fast.
Remember, with nids, you want to give him so many targets that the opponents doesn't know what to do.
You put the opponents in the position that if he shoots A, you'll squash him with B. And if he shoots A and B, you can still rend him with C.
LO RulesOriginally Posted by AnonymousOriginally Posted by Cyric
17 force organization selections wherever possible - along lines of Karmoon's advice that you present as many targets as you possibly can.
As a general rule, Space Marines possess violent, but discreet firepower. They're not going to be able to, for instance, eliminate 6 units a turn ... but they can put a lot of hurt on single units at a time.
Your raveners: Even if all you have is 3, it should be 3 squads of 1 each. Then he has to dedicate an entire unit's fire to kill only one. Wasted bullets.
Your genestealers: Should be minimum squad sizes, and 6 squads, if that's the only troops you're using. Same theory as the raveners. You get fleet redundancy too, and frankly you can just keep them together if you want them to hit about the same time ... it's not like you can't do that if they're in multiple squads.
Your Flyrant: Use the movement speed to keep it behind cover early on and make him sweat about it. Sometimes shooty units are best used not shooting all the time. Good mech eldar players learn this, where it can be just as valuable to spend a turn or two maneuvering so that when you DO get shooting and/or charging you have a better advantage. Same applies to you and your movement of assault troops ... since all your guys thanks to fleet or beast rule have a very large charge range, don't necessarily barrel across the board ... sneak around a bit and keep from getting chewed up too much ... make him come out to try and get at you.
Use multiple sniperfexes. Genestealers really aren't that great against marines in my opinion, while at the same time they can be really great ... not a contradiction; you're relying on that rending attack ... if you don't get it, they're gonna save more wounds than you save. Against lighter guys like tau fire warriors or guardsmen, your genestealers get far better, b/c all the wounds they put on that don't rend are probably gonna get through and kill things anyway. I personally prefer using 3 squads of 2 raveners to smack things like terminator squads in the mouth hard, or defend myself against melee specialist squads, and I use massed spinegaunts to deal with or tie up the plain jane marines ... even if I don't gank 'em they aren't doing anything but smacking 5 point models around that won't break.
I guess it's just a theorycraft approach. You've got an army with 2 models that can shoot. A smart player will either ignore them since they don't have enough to counterbalance output, or kill them and then have a field day with the rest of the guys.
Think of it this way: a melee-heavy Tyranid army will not be able to match the shooting of a shooty Space Marine army, but will beat it if they can get into close combat. A shooty Tyranid army will match the shooting of a shooty Space Marine army, and will still beat it if it gets into close combat.
Speed and shooty is a big part of getting things done as well. A pair of tyrants with 2 twinlinked devourers each, dakkafexes or dakka warrior squads, etc. Marines are limited in number, and their high saving throw or toughness is easily brushed aside by high volume of wounds - both # of wounds your army has, and # of wounds you put on him every turn to force saving throws.
In the current situation, it appears as if you're throwing a couple of sniperfex rounds at a tank, a few shots from a tyrant (maybe more if he's 2 x tl dev), and the rest of your army is just eating it in the face without returning the favor all game.
The thing about marines is they are EASILY out-shot if you focus on that ... but if you're going to go with a melee oriented approach, you really do need to pick up the speed significantly as stated above ... and also try to make sure you get cover that provides you with attack routes to hide behind ... if they are refusing to put much cover on the board, call 'em out on it and point out that an unfair balance toward EITHER side is still unfair.
A good question before any further advice is offered is: do you have the models / open mind for a shootier list, or are you pretty set with what you have? If all you've got is 2 creatures that shoot and the rest melee, you're going to perpetually struggle to get to grips with a backboarding shooty player.
Nids & Guard
GMail = MVBrandt
The one other piece of advice that's very important. If your opponent is setting up on the board edge it means you can slowly advance behind cover all the way forward. That's one of the most important things is to use that cover. And if there's no cover to hide behind, well, don't play that opponent.
A lot of people try to deny nids cover because it weakens us (and it does) if someone is using the cheesey tactic alone to try and beat you over and over again, try playing someone else, you'll enjoy it more.
~2k of genestealery goodness
~1750points of terminator goodness
Dovie'andi se tovya sagain
more witty remarks to come.
Honestly can't offer any obvious advice for a CC style nid list besides stay out of LOS, and use cover. Make sure that you are dropping the minimum of 25% terrain.
My method of killing marines is barbed stranglers on warriors, 2 hts, 2 gun fex, and 3 zos with WB. toss in some GS to scare him and enjoy. If he stays at 25", swap fire, you'll win easily. If he advances, step back for 2 turns, then rush him.
i've beat a good friends neigh unbeatabe blood angel list doing that. Stayed at 25" and blasted away. It was sad how much attrition he took as he was afraid to close because of my GS and gaunts and carnies, so he fired his ML, LC, and HBs, but was out of bolter range.
16,000+ of Eldar (only need flyers)
7,000+ of Nids (want heirophant)
6,000+ of Space Marines (need rever titan)
4,400+ of Cygnar (all models for the faction)
1,500+ of Legion (just started)
Your list seems light. Not enough numbers to get to the other side of the board to do anything with. While high WS/Str melee attacks are great, it doesn't matter much when you can't get there. You also suffer from a lack of synapse.
For marines I've found the best thing is a few waves of gaunts to go in first. Once the gaunts engage, by turn two, three at the latest, you'll have time to move up the heavy hitters. I enjoy the reaction of my space marine opponents when they say, "I don't know what to shoot at, there's so many targets that everything is a priority!"
You have to use cover. If you have no cover, you're as good as dead.
I would change your shooty flyrant to a scythed one (just personal preference, however I think he fairs better against low save armies...shooty is better against high save armies, but nothing beats 5(6) attcaks that hit on 3s and wound on 2s.
Second is redundancy...don't ever bring a squad of anything (except the flyrant/broodlord). You need two lictors if you are going to bring any, and two fexes if you want to deal out enough pain to make one worth it.
And finally you need some kind of speed that can tie units up (and not kill them or die). I use two squads of gargoyles, but if you can't afford them switch to scuttle gaunts and Zoans (for snyapse, and warp blast will be helpful too) [ravenors are great for a punch, but can't tie up anything for long enough to help the rest of your army]. You just need to get to the enemies lines, or look like you are going to get there so they have to adjust what they are are planing to do...if they preform their battle plan you will probably lose the game of mathhammer to them; if you can make them change what they were thinking they start to make mistakes and let you slip in your hard hitting monsters by either tieing them up early, or having them shoot creatures that only exist to cause them to lose a turn.
Hope that is what you were looking for.
I'd just like to use that comment (no offense) as a quick dispel of the rumors about a scythed tyrant being better against low save armies.
6 attacks with the scythed tyrant on charge, no shots pre-charge. 4 hit marines, killing 3.8 or something (call it 4 to be fair).
2 x TL devourer tyrant maneuvers and charges, but naturally shoots first. 12 shots, 8 hit, about 3 hit on re-roll ... 11 hits (A lil less, like 10.5+). About 7.x wound, with another 2 or so on the re-roll, for about 10 wounds.
3+ marines are dead already.
Then you charge with the same stats less 2 attacks, for 4 on the charge. You hit about 3, for another 3 dead marines.
IT's not even close. TL devourers on tyrants put out so many bullets at BS4 / S5 that the re-rolls add up to too many wounds to save. And they still get 3 attacks (instead of the ST tyrant's 5) that hit on 3+ and wound on 2+ and ignore armor saves.
Nids & Guard
GMail = MVBrandt
Monstrous creature melee is intended to be nasty, even shooty fexes should advance and try to get into combat.
3 (for charging) attacks from a fex would kill 2 space marines and demolish any vehicle*.
*Excludes Monoliths and anything with structure points.
Zoanthropes are great anti-MEQ, especially since your opponent has to expend a whole lot of firepower to just kill ONE.
Bio Acid mines may help, but I've never been a fan of the Biovores after spore mines became small blast.
Horms and leaping Rippers to tie up squads, Genestealers for the killing blow. I never use CC fexes, and my Flyrant is always in the melee incredibly quickly.
Devilfexes and Sniperfexes. They waste stuff.