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I was doing some experimenting and tinkering, and realizing that catalyst has some tremendous power in a swarmy army. Especially in using swarms to take out large monstrous creature units or High-I Glass-jawed critters (-cough- Genestealers!)
Example: A good sized brood of termagaunts (say 16 or so) backed up with a 'thrope with catalyst might be better than a 'thrope with warp blast. On the charge, that's an absolute 32 attacks (assuming I don't get my gaunts killed on the way over). And with the I-throw-more-dice-I-win style mechanic of 40K, that can put some serious hurt down on any unit, initiative order or not.
Could this power be more effective than scoring either one wound on a big thing or 2-3 wounds if I'm lucky on a squad of troops, while missing half the time? Catalyst Doesn't miss.
I tried it with charging Hormagaunts. The humanity! Sheer overwhelming numbers of attacks. Couldn't wait to try it with bigger or multiple broods.
Do not meddle in the affairs of Tyranids, for you are crunchy, and good with ketchup.
Yeah, it can work to wonderful effect. My only misgiving is that it's a one-trick pony. Plus when I charge into melee, I almost always have a higher init. It may be useful for assaulting into cover with something that isn't using flesh hooks.
Other than the occasionally lucky tank shot, zoanthropes are one of the worst anti-infantry units in our army, so yeah I agree there I guess? Every time I hear someone get excited about OMG IT'S A S5 AP3 BLAST I can't help but laugh.
I mainly use warp blast zoanthropes so that they might do something, but more importantly so that people waste fire on them instead of more valuable units. The AP3 freaks out MEQ players, b/c they don't get that it's nearly harmless (it only will hit 3 turns out of 6 if it fires on every turn, which it probably won't, it's going to hit 3 marines at most, most of the time, probably only wound 2 even if it hits 3 ... it's just not that great).
Now try to tell me that those 32 termagant attacks are better than a squad of warriors with twinlinked devourers ... that's when you'll get an argument outta me.
Nids & Guard
GMail = MVBrandt
Moob walks with the wisdom of many gaunts.
Nids & Guard
GMail = MVBrandt
that is an interesting point you pose MVBrandt
and while i am just getting into nids it does appear like a good power to me.
say a marine equals a random number like 15
and a zoan w warp blast equals a random number like 65
from a simple RNvRN perspective
then it will take 4 SM's to = 1 zoan.
so purely on this it will be 4/(1/2)/(2/3) = 12 aimed at SM or 6 hit SM
say you hit 3 times a game that means you need 2 hits a time from a simple perspective which doesn't seem like a difficult ask.
When you factor in the defensive (lets all fire on the zoans) aspect they seem very worth while.
In comparison a couple of Warriors with 2xDevs doesn't seem that powerful. So please elaborate (PM is fine, if you don't want to derail thread further)
being I3/4 catalyst would help on occasion, but I stil don't htink you would win combat very often to use psychic scream against them.
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Rock is cheese, Paper is just fine
WWP and other Dark Eldar how to
I swear even with the supper powered bolt when I actually hit a bloody vehicle or an infantry unit I roll a bloody one or something along the lines even with three of em fireing.
While on the other hand devours offer plenty of rerolls to assure that you will hit the broad side of a barn and the good chance of wounding with rerolls. Now I know one thing for sure is nids survive with large swathes of shots which I'm sure MVBrandt will vouche for (as he runs shooty nids and is fairly succefull with em from what I hear and I believe it).
Either way I prefer rolling lots of dice with rerolls in it that and usually weak alone then to one high strength shot that seems to always miss when you need it most.
Now the only reason I actually take WB anymore is...well Psychic Scream is nasty good as in it will screw over certain armies by a lot and considered cheese amongst many. So since I only have tournament once in a blue moon I choose the much milder WB to keep the shouts of cheese at bay (they get annoying after awhile...).
Sorry if it sounds like a rant...guess I'm not a huge fan of relying on calculations with nids as I never get average rolls with mine...most of the time they are completely opposite of the average.
Is it me or does any other necron player get annoyed when they see people saying "Necrons eat souls". How is that even possible as souls are part of the warp and necrons want nothing to do with it? Eh probaly me just me being picky.
Tyranid Hivemind Member
I'll happily mathhamer this for you even, they're superior in any instance.
Let's assume your units aren't killed, and are able to fire on every turn. In fact, I'll actually have the warriors not able to fire for one turn, since their weapon is 6" short in range (18" vs. the small blast's 24"). Let us also assume our opponent is not stupid, so you're going to get the max full and 2 partials you normally max out at for warp blast (and it can be less mind you, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt).
In turns 1 - 6 the Zoanthrope will hit 3 times. That means 3 fulls and 6 partials, so 6 total. Wounding on a 3+, he'll inflict 4 wounds. Let's assume they aren't in cover or anything, that's 4 dead marines at 15 points each. 60 points. Your Zoanthrope costs at least 55.
Same opponent ... but let's say he's in cover vs. the devourers. Each warrior for a standard devourer build is 35 points - enhanced senses, toxin sacs, 2 devourers (which become twinlinked by purchasing 2).
The minimum squad of 3, costing 105 points, will fire 5 turns. Each warrior shoots 4 times, so that's 12 x 5 for 60 shots.
60 shots hit 30 times, then the 30 re-roll and hit another 15. 45 hits. The gun is S4, so 22.5 hit, and 22.5 re-roll for another 11.25 wounds. That's 33.75 wounds. That's 11.25 dead marines (they fail 1/3 armor saves). That's a marine value of 168.75. It isn't even slightly close.
What's more, the tougher or weaker the opponent you are going after, so long as it's infantry of course, the better the warriors do.
Let's say you're shooting up 5+ armor saving guard. The zoanthrope will still hit a total of 6 models over the course of the game, wound 5 of them and kill 5 of them. ZOMG IT KILLED FIVE GUARDSMEN.
Now the warrior squad. 45 hits, s4 vs. t3, 30 wounds. 15 missed wounds re-roll for 10 more. That's 40 wounds. They save 13.3. That's 26.7 dead guardsmen. More than five times more effective than the zoanthrope.
When it comes to killing vehicles, I shouldn't have to start on how much better sniperfexes are.
AP3 is a red herring. Zoanthropes suck. They also fire-suck, which is their only realiable value, b/c other people don't mathhammer it and so they don't know how useless they are.
(Let's add a tiny ps that if your warriors get caught in combat, they are 2 attacks, WS4, S5, I4 ... and the Zoanthrope ain't that).
Nids & Guard
GMail = MVBrandt
I have to agree with a lot of the above. Sure Catalyst can be useful but it pales in comparison to psychic scream. If you really want to see powerful then just run 3x zoans with psychic scream, 2 HTs with psychic scream and 7 stranglers in a list...
Yeah, that's what I roll with and my opponents just dread it.
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