Welcome to Librarium Online!
Well let me start my explaining the style of DE army I play.
I like to pin stuff. As many Raider Squads as I can, each with a Haemonculi and Syrabite equipped with a Terrorfex/ Raider with Horrorfex and Slave Snares, all deepstriking from the sky.
Wyches are great (I know), but I rarely play any. Mainly because DSing a Raider of Wyches usually doesnt turn out too great.
Now, my best friend plays Orks (new, of course). He, too, is known for playing fluffy lists over cheesy ones, so I'm not expecting another triple Loota army, DSing stormboyz who can assault out, etc.
He used to play Kult of Speed, but lately its been all about the hordes. In a 1000pt game, he boasts about bringing over 100 models. I play Tyranids as well, and I haven't done that.
So, basically, how do I kill that much? Large (30-ish) units of orks means they won't be mounted, but they can't be pinned.
To adapt my list (who am I kidding... total upheaval), I figure to use some unorthodox ideas, such as
Sniper Squad with two Splinter Cannons rather than Dark Lances
Webway Portal in my own Deployment zone, hiding two-three Taloi (is that the plural?)-- When the orks don't have the charge, only the Klaw toting Nob can hurt the Talos.
Good ol' Gunline. Stand and shoot.
But I don't know the effectiveness of any particular tactic versus the horde ork army. If you have any particular successful tactics or advice (or even what NOT to do), please do tell.
I personally think a Green Slave would be hilarious.
Im not too sure on the Dark Eldar list, but if you want to be really gay, any gun that is AP6 (or better) and fires 2 or more shots a turn is the way to go. I'd suggest focusing on one unit at a time until you get them to the point they have to take Ld tests. I hope that helps atleast a little bit mate
Well I think that sniper squads with 2 splinter cannons won't be enough to cut down on the hoard. Even if you take 5 or so of them you will only start killing orks within 24 inches. The SPC's will kill about 3 orks a volley so the is 15 orks for what 2 at best three turns so 45 orks at best and that is rounding up. The other weapons will take out 1.7 or 2 orks at 24 inches. So that is 20-25 orks killed in a round of shooting. In rapid fire range it's higher, the splinter rifles should kill 3 or 4 orks. But if the orks make it into combat you will lose squads fast.
Maybe borrow a page from the dire avengers and move up to shoot and than back to keep out of combat and get as many shots with your assault weapons. Even Scourges with 4 splinter cannons will work very well killing almost 6-7 orks a turn more with luck. Scourges also move fast enough to stay out of combat.
Prey they don't take you alive
Not sure if "tooling" your list to beat orks is fair but if your friend is making choices to best beat the Dark Eldar then I think it is fair.
What I think is ideal against the green tide:
Destructors - just roll to wound and you're done
Shredders - wow, never thought I would recommend this but it even works against nids.
Disintegrators - do I really need to say anything?
Splinter anything - its all about amount of fire and AP baby!
Stingers - another one out of the closet but I would take the destructor over this
xenospasm - you like to pin? This is a no-brainer even if you can't pin!
scissorhand - Take this over the stinger as well, couple it with combat drugs if you dare.
poison blades - if you are hurting on points take this instead of an agoniser
Wyches - I know you dont use them but the idea is to kill everything that can strike back, they can do it. I went 2 turns as I killed everything in that could strike back and never lost a single wych (thank you drugs!).
Warpbeasts - a good gun-line counter charger and they too can kill everything that can strike back while charging however they will be in trouble on the next round of combat if they roll averagely.
Combat drugs - if you are going to use Haemys then I would consider using drugs as a defensive measure. You already know Haemys are worth more while shooting and you should keep them shooting as much as possible so this makes close combat an undesired thing. Combat drugs will help you kill 1 or 2 more orks than you normally would but at the risk of over-dosing and the like, however, against the orks the drugs actually give you a good chance (because of the orks low armor save and wounding on a "2").
Slave snares - enough said, I like them and since you use them already you probably know how to use them anyway. I do like them but the sluggas have a chance of taking a raider down so its not a sure thing.
Despite beating orks when using a WWP I am going to say its not as necessary as you think. There is no real hurry to get into CC since you are not going to use wyches or beasts. Shooting is more important and the portal should be used in order to keep things from getting shot or to put your shooty forces near an objective. In escalation games (omega) this is very important as you get to put your forces down ready to fire or assault close to the objective while the orks come out piece meal (this alone has won me several games).
With what little you provided I would do this:
WWP - depends on your list but I would shy away from it - a first turn drop only benefits in an omega mission games and you are coming in piece meal in alpha and gamma games. I cant suggest turn 2 dropping as you run the risk of getting over-ran.
Trade horrorfexs with disintegrators.
Put a Haemy in every raider squad you can get.
Use alot of raider squads and keep them on the raider as long as possible (keep them cheap).
Use large warrior squads as I find them to very useful and somewhat durable - splinter cannons are nice but if you go with shredders they will probably only get one round of shooting before charging or being charged (which I dont recommend!). This squad can either start on the board or go in the portal.
Give the sybarites a rifle and poison blades and keep the Haemys un-attached but close by.
I do not like the Talos and would recommend a ravager easily in this case. If you are set on using a Talos then use it either as a counter-charger near a gun line as to protect the gun lines. The portal is fine too but rather use the Talos to protect the deployers and to watch over the portal so they dont block it. I still think the Ravager would be a better choice. The Talos works great when facing small groups and especially when it has a chance of killing most of the squad on the charge but against hordes they will not kill enough to protect themselves (for example, they are great against marines and bikes and expensive units that are not in big groups like terminators but if you can't kill that power fist or klaw then you will die).
Just some ideas - if you could post a list with a battle plan then we could help more!
We were doing our best not to 'tailor' our lists, per se. Because I was slightly unsure what to go with, I went with my generic Wych Cult army (1000 pt).
He had 2 Units of 20 Sluggas, 1 unit of 20 Shootas, 3 Killa Kans, 1 Dreadnought, 1 Big Mek with Kustom Force Field.
I went with the 15 DE Warriors (with Warp Portal, 2 Cannons), and in the portal, 3 units of Raider Wyches, 1 unit w/ Dracite and 5 Wych Retinue and 4 Warp Beasts+ Beastmaster.
With my Wyches, 2 units had 12inch assault, one unit had +1 Str.
He had the first turn, but my Warriors were well buried in cover, so they were safe. First turn, I set the portal and simply played the waiting game.
2nd Turn, he knocked off 2 Warriors by piloting around some cover. One of my Raiders and the Beasts became available but I held them back.
3rd Turn, In ork fashion, he continued moving forward and did his WAAAGH move. Dreads killed a couple Warriors, but they didn't flee. Still a little short of my Warriors, the Orks couldn't assault. This turn, all my Raiders became available.
I brought all four Raiders onto one flank- (26 Wyches and a Dracite against 20 Sluggas!!) and utterly demolished the entire unit. The Warp Beasts tied up the Shootas for a turn, but it was unneccessary, since my Wyches consolidated right into them.
The Raider Dark Lances messed up the Kans and the Dreadnaught badly.
Turn 4: Confused, my friend continued to march his Orks ahead to deal with my Warriors, who were still back by the Warp Portal. Their Shooting, backed with Big Shootas from the Kans brought my Warriors to 4, and they fleed off the board.
Then, I killed all his Shootas in his turn. My next turn? Kiss goodbye to the Walkers, then all the Wyches pounced on the last unit of Sluggas. He forfeited the game there.
This list wasn't tailored to beat orks, but it did well in this game. I strongly advocate WYCHES now, since they do admirably against low armored enemies *its not just the agoniser doing the killing*
To think what would happen if I knew how to hit the orks better!
Lets keep this discussion up for future ork-oid slave runs!
Even through it's super anti fluff and i would never play a list like it, Dark Eldar can get quite a horde with warriors in squads of 20 with special and heavy weapons being around 200 points about the cost of an ork squad of relative size a couple of these squads and you would rip your opponents to shreds with shooting and mop up everything else in multiple squad combats.
Last edited by senseifletch; December 26th, 2007 at 20:06.
The only issue with this is that orks can field bigger and more units of boyz than we have warriors. I suppose a giant gunline COULD work, though your opponent would have to be footslogging his entire army across the board.
The ubiquitous Stormboyz unit led by Boss Zagstruk would really cause havoc, not to mention the Loota battery, which has us beat on range.
Any sort of fast unit would cause issues, especially if they can simply tie up the gunline until the hordes start knockin' on the door.
So while this gunline seems like a good idea, I don't know if it really is. Every Ork player I've come across has a Kustom Force Field anyway, so AP 5 doesnt really matter.
I think our mobility is our greatest asset, especially here. Orks are good at a frontal charge, so whats to stop us from hitting them on a flank, where there are fewer?
Plus what's more satisfying than nulling your foe's Furious Charge by hitting him first, especially when he's always banking on it?
Yah, I met mr. Zagstuk up close and personalble once. I had a warrior squad sitting on the edge of my deployment zone on the first turn and had his stormboyz shoot across the board and Waaaghed right into them - 1st turn charge, aaaaargh!
Do not under estimate the orks charge range or their ability to get into charge range - it will be the last charge your warriors will ever see.
You can try baiting them into a decoy unit so you can rapidfire them to death but the idea of getting close enough to shoot them and not get charged next turn is tough.
I dunno if you can easily explain a simple tactic or strategy to beat the orks - I dont think you can. Strategy will depend on terrain, mission, mission level and your opponents experience level.
Maybe one of the only times I would recommend scourges. 16 splinter cannon shots plus possibly a xenospasm with some support, like in the form of warp beasts to bail them out if they're stuck in CC would be excellent.
The Talos can dish out lots of shots at range. Generally, Ork units are pretty big, so there isn't too much of a chance of running out of targets. Plus, as mentioned before, the T7 can ruin an Ork's day, since it only has S3 without the charge.
Ravagers with the triple disintegrator setup can pummel out a lot shots as well, though a lucky shoota or big shoota shot can finish that story quickly. Even Night Shields are of limited effectiveness since the Orks are gonna keep moving forward. Plus, Big Shootas are assault, as are their Rokkit Launchas.
Heavy Support-wise, I'd probably go with the Talos or the Deepstriking Scourges. Maybe like 6 of them, with 4 Splinter Cannons flying to the very back to make the Ork player guess himself. Of course, they have to be hidden from those darn walkers.